VillageCraft
VillageCraft Boards => Parliament | Suggestions => Topic started by: Yvette on 24 April 2020, 11:42:24 PM
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NOTICE: To Register for Parliament, post a reply to the thread in this link: http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=22.0
VOTE PASSED | REGULATIONS EXPIRED - NO LONGER IN FORCE
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Parliament Vote #21 - Regulation of Industrial Farms
1) Automatic or Industrialized Farms are not allowed to be used when 10 or more people are online (6 or more for farms involving nether portals).
(a) Farms have 5 minutes to comply once 10 or more players are online.
(b) Farms that involve nether portals have 5 minutes to comply once 6 or more players are online.
(c) Staff may take the following actions:
- Immediately: a notice to disable,
- After 5 minutes: a warning and kick if AFK,
- After 10 minutes: a second warning and a kick.
- After 15 minutes: a final warning and a kick.
- After 30 minutes: proceed to regular punishments, and stop the farm if necessary (such as toggling an on-off lever) without physical edits.
(d) Staff may not take the following action:
- Physically edit the farm without consent of the owner.
2) Automatic or Industrialized Farms are defined as follows:
(a) Volume > 4096 (16^3) for a random tick-based farm.
(b) Entity Count > 256 for a spawner-based farm.
(c) Volume > 32768 (32^3) for mob spawning-based farm.
(d) Any Farm that involves sending entities (items or mobs) through nether portals.
- This class of farm must cease once 6 or more people are online.
3) Exemptions to rules 1 and 2:
(a) Any farm may be considered exempt of these rules if:
- A Staff Vote decides unanimously in favour of exemption, or;
- A simple vote of MPs on the Parliament Board has a majority decide in favour of exemption (official Parliament vote not needed),
and;
(b) The farm is ostensibly for the public benefit and is freely available for use by the public.
4) This rule expires fifteen days after VillageCraft updates to the next major Minecraft version.
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Please vote now.
Discuss here or review the discussion threads:
http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=5059.0
http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=5062.0
http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=5067.0
NOTICE: To Register for Parliament, post a reply to the thread in this link: http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=22.0
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Parliament Vote #21 - New Community Minister Guidelines
Wait are we voting on farms or CM again? ???
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Parliament Vote #21 - New Community Minister Guidelines
Wait are we voting on farms or CM again? ???
Fixed, thanks for pointing it out :-*
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For #4, for clarification, will this only effect the server when it's in 1.14, or is it binding?
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For #4, for clarification, will this only effect the server when it's in 1.14, or is it binding?
It will be in effect for 1.14, and for the first 15 days of the next update. To extend it beyond that will require another vote of Parliament
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If I'm being honest, I dont really see this rule solves anything. As other people have said this would be the equivalent of a band aid instead of a suture. The misconception that farms are the cause or one of the causes of the lag still seems prevalent even though the data @luisc99 collected shows otherwise.
The Qualia test can essentially be used a a control, what a typical player may be loading and the effects of that upon the server.
1. Qualia
As a baseline, I performed each of the tests at the Qualia warp point, to get a picture of how a typical area should perform. Some processing involved here will be the items in all of the showcases, and those cool little floating text things we've got dotted around Qualia. This is the graph (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru85wp3lcpc05tt/Qualia.png?dl=0) of the TPS and average time between ticks in all three versions (red is 1.14, green is 1.15, blue is 1.16), but this is the general summary:
| Version | Mean TPS | Median TPS | Standard Deviation |
1.14 | 19.80 | 20.30 | 2.27 |
1.15 | 19.92 | 19.51 | 2.01 |
1.16 | 19.98 | 19.89 | 2.77 |
And the statistics from Octos Farm.
2. Octo's Farm
Here, the major things for the server to process is the redstone and pistons involved in the farms, every entity that is in the farm, each of the item drops it creates, and all the hoppers and chests that are required to store all the drops. Again, this is the graph (https://www.dropbox.com/s/24wel7p1419gr3c/Octo.png?dl=0) of how it performed in different versions, and this is how it breaks down:
| Version | Mean TPS | Median TPS | Standard Deviation |
1.14 | 19.52 | 19.97 | 4.29 |
1.15 | 20.03 | 20.59 | 2.97 |
1.16 | 20.06 | 20.24 | 3.44 |
Comparing the two, as Luis already said, there is a very small drop in TPS, one that probably wouldnt be noticed by players. The conclusion that we can draw from this is that pumpkin farms really dont have that big of an impact upon server performance; the drop in TPS between Qualia and Octos Farm in 1.14 is only about 1.7%. This is obviously only done with one large farm but a situation where there are multiple people online using their farms at once seems to be unlikely.
And now the stats from Cyphurs farm.
3. Cyphur's Farm
I picked this as a third test to ensure I've got multiple data points for farms, rather than just the single one. As Cyphur admitted in a different thread that they have a large farm, I took that as an invitation to test it. Much like Octo's farm, there are a lot of things to process here, mainly entities and water flows, but this farm also includes nether portals, which will involve moving entities between worlds, which may be a source of strain on the server by requiring more chunks to be loaded and unloaded. As with before, here is the chart (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bss0sr77w40bx92/Cyphur.png?dl=0), and here are the results:
| Version | Mean TPS | Median TPS | Standard Deviation |
1.14 | 19.48 | 20.06 | 6.35 |
1.15 | 20.03 | 20.00 | 2.37 |
1.16 | 20.16 | 20.06 | 2.29 |
Whereas the drop in at Cyphur's farm is less than Octo's the fluctuation is triple that of Qualias and double that of Octo's farm in 1.14. The problem appears to not be with pumpkin farms but with farms with a lot of mobs and potentially cross world loading like gold farms or Cyphur's farm. That isnt to say that any of these farms cause a significant issue or TPS drop, because they dont.
The notion that is imbedded in the proposal; that after the server is updated to a newer version the fluctuations will decrease, is also partially wrong. Although the fluctuations will decrease during 1.15; in both Qualia and Octos farm the deviation goes back to higher levels, although the deviation at Octos farm would be lower in 1.16 than in 1.14.
The conclusions we should probably be drawing from this should be the ones that Luis originally drew. Farms are not a significant source of lag. Luis has also said that he will be trying to fix the legitimate sources of lag. Due to the problem most likely being reduced within the foreseeable future this rule is nothing but a hindrance to both staff and players. Both groups of people should be able to just enjoy the game without worrying about enforcing unnecessary rules.
The easy solution to this is not necessarily to regulate farms but to switch up the economy a bit. If people are still convinced that pumpkin farms cause significant lag (Which they dont) Why dont we just decrease the price of pumpkins in order to incentive other ways of making money. As for farms like gold farms or Cyphur's farm the commodity received is either non sell-able (XP) or shouldn't have the price changed (Gold). The regulation discussion should probably be about these farms instead of agrarian ones, I have no idea for a solution for these types of farms but thats why the discussion is still on :) To tie it all back together, I dont know why we're even considering this bill because it fails at its main purpose, to stop lag, and we should be finding a permanent solution rather than a temporary one.
@Lividup64 Theres your analysis <3
tl;dr: Pumpkin Farms probably dont cause significant lag and shouldn't be regulated the way this bill proposes. Other versions might make the fluctuations worse. For other farms, it should more nuanced than this bill
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Luis's test is not a live under-load VC test, so can't be used as a control, but it is an interesting reference evidence. It needs to be considered against anecdotal evidence on the live server in my opinion.
This is indeed not the ultimate solution to the problem, which is why it is written to be a temporary measure. If passed, it will serve as a test to see if it does indeed help make a noticeable dent.
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I'd like to point something out. I don't think it would be accurate to say that these large standard deviations are insignificant. If we assume this data falls into a normal curve, which is a pretty conservative assumption, we can use statistics to calculate how often the tps is taking significant dives (I used under 15 as a benchmark).
At Qualia:
normalcdf(0,15,19.8,2.27)=0.0172=1.72%
This means the tps drops below 15 1.72% of the time.
At Octo's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.52,4.29)=0.146=14.6%
We have now gone from tps dropping below 15 1.72% of the time to it dropping that low 14.6% of the time. That's a little over 1/7 of the time. I would not call that insignificant. In one hour, that's eight and a half minutes.
At Cyphur's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.48,6.35)=0.239=23.9%
This one hurts my soul. That's almost 1/4 of all your time on the server, 15 full minutes for every hour.
The same percentages apply to time spent with a tps above 24.6. If you were to raise the benchmark, say to 16, the percentages would rise NOT linearly. This is all assuming the tps falls into a normal curve, because that is a conservative way to estimate, the reality almost certainly include outliers which increase these percentages further.
I'm writing this in bed on my phone so if I made any glaring mistakes please lmk, it's not unlikely. Thank you :)
And your controls for this are? sorry but if luis's data isn't evidence, then this certainly is not. The tps fluctuates, this isn't a good method to test it. Did VC have the same amount of players on at all time when you did this? did you check? did you check if they were at their farms the entire 15 min intervals? or for the full hour. probably not, and when did you do theses stats because I havent even been on in the last few days, would like to know when you found the time to collect that "info" from my farms specifically.
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I'd like to point something out. I don't think it would be accurate to say that these large standard deviations are insignificant. If we assume this data falls into a normal curve, which is a pretty conservative assumption, we can use statistics to calculate how often the tps is taking significant dives (I used under 15 as a benchmark).
At Qualia:
normalcdf(0,15,19.8,2.27)=0.0172=1.72%
This means the tps drops below 15 1.72% of the time.
At Octo's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.52,4.29)=0.146=14.6%
We have now gone from tps dropping below 15 1.72% of the time to it dropping that low 14.6% of the time. That's a little over 1/7 of the time. I would not call that insignificant. In one hour, that's eight and a half minutes.
At Cyphur's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.48,6.35)=0.239=23.9%
This one hurts my soul. That's almost 1/4 of all your time on the server, 15 full minutes for every hour.
The same percentages apply to time spent with a tps above 24.6. If you were to raise the benchmark, say to 16, the percentages would rise NOT linearly. This is all assuming the tps falls into a normal curve, because that is a conservative way to estimate, the reality almost certainly include outliers which increase these percentages further.
I'm writing this in bed on my phone so if I made any glaring mistakes please lmk, it's not unlikely. Thank you :)
And your controls for this are? sorry but if luis's data isn't evidence, then this certainly is not. The tps fluctuates, this isn't a good method to test it. Did VC have the same amount of players on at all time when you did this? did you check? did you check if they were at their farms the entire 15 min intervals? or for the full hour. probably not, and when did you do theses stats because I havent even been on in the last few days, would like to know when you found the time to collect that "info" from my farms specifically.
Hi. These calculations are based on Luis' evidence. I used his exact numbers in the equations. I did not do my own stats becauss I used Luis' exact numbers. That's how data works, you can use it to calculate information. Your tone is extremely aggressive for someone who misunderstood my post. Thank you.
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I'd like to point something out. I don't think it would be accurate to say that these large standard deviations are insignificant. If we assume this data falls into a normal curve, which is a pretty conservative assumption, we can use statistics to calculate how often the tps is taking significant dives (I used under 15 as a benchmark).
At Qualia:
normalcdf(0,15,19.8,2.27)=0.0172=1.72%
This means the tps drops below 15 1.72% of the time.
At Octo's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.52,4.29)=0.146=14.6%
We have now gone from tps dropping below 15 1.72% of the time to it dropping that low 14.6% of the time. That's a little over 1/7 of the time. I would not call that insignificant. In one hour, that's eight and a half minutes.
At Cyphur's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.48,6.35)=0.239=23.9%
This one hurts my soul. That's almost 1/4 of all your time on the server, 15 full minutes for every hour.
The same percentages apply to time spent with a tps above 24.6. If you were to raise the benchmark, say to 16, the percentages would rise NOT linearly. This is all assuming the tps falls into a normal curve, because that is a conservative way to estimate, the reality almost certainly include outliers which increase these percentages further.
I'm writing this in bed on my phone so if I made any glaring mistakes please lmk, it's not unlikely. Thank you :)
And your controls for this are? sorry but if luis's data isn't evidence, then this certainly is not. The tps fluctuates, this isn't a good method to test it. Did VC have the same amount of players on at all time when you did this? did you check? did you check if they were at their farms the entire 15 min intervals? or for the full hour. probably not, and when did you do theses stats because I havent even been on in the last few days, would like to know when you found the time to collect that "info" from my farms specifically.
Hi. These calculations are based on Luis' evidence. I used his exact numbers in the equations. I did not do my own stats because I used Luis' exact numbers. That's how data works, you can use it to calculate information. Thank you.
Hi. Those calculations then can't be used for reasons already specified. As Luis's test wasn't done on a live version of VC his info can't be used as a control. As the server wasn't under stress. That's how lag works, it happens when theirs more people online. Thank you.
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I'd like to point something out. I don't think it would be accurate to say that these large standard deviations are insignificant. If we assume this data falls into a normal curve, which is a pretty conservative assumption, we can use statistics to calculate how often the tps is taking significant dives (I used under 15 as a benchmark).
At Qualia:
normalcdf(0,15,19.8,2.27)=0.0172=1.72%
This means the tps drops below 15 1.72% of the time.
At Octo's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.52,4.29)=0.146=14.6%
We have now gone from tps dropping below 15 1.72% of the time to it dropping that low 14.6% of the time. That's a little over 1/7 of the time. I would not call that insignificant. In one hour, that's eight and a half minutes.
At Cyphur's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.48,6.35)=0.239=23.9%
This one hurts my soul. That's almost 1/4 of all your time on the server, 15 full minutes for every hour.
The same percentages apply to time spent with a tps above 24.6. If you were to raise the benchmark, say to 16, the percentages would rise NOT linearly. This is all assuming the tps falls into a normal curve, because that is a conservative way to estimate, the reality almost certainly include outliers which increase these percentages further.
I'm writing this in bed on my phone so if I made any glaring mistakes please lmk, it's not unlikely. Thank you :)
And your controls for this are? sorry but if luis's data isn't evidence, then this certainly is not. The tps fluctuates, this isn't a good method to test it. Did VC have the same amount of players on at all time when you did this? did you check? did you check if they were at their farms the entire 15 min intervals? or for the full hour. probably not, and when did you do theses stats because I havent even been on in the last few days, would like to know when you found the time to collect that "info" from my farms specifically.
Hi. These calculations are based on Luis' evidence. I used his exact numbers in the equations. I did not do my own stats becauss I used Luis' exact numbers. That's how data works, you can use it to calculate information. Thank you.
Then we can't use this info for the reasons ako already specified. Thank you.
I think you misunderstand. Luis' tests were of the server not under any extra load. That is why we cannot conclude that the farms make no difference, as Ako said. My calculations provide concrete evidence that farms make a difference when the server is not under load. Added load would only make the fluctuations I presented worse. Thank you
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as Ako said. My calculations provide concrete evidence that farms make a difference when the server is not under load. Added load would only make the fluctuations I presented worse. Thank you
link to quote please. Thank you. And don't tell me when I'm misunderstood when I'm not if you had actually quoted my reply, you'd see that I said that buddy.
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At Cyphur's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.48,6.35)=0.239=23.9%
This one hurts my soul. That's almost 1/4 of all your time on the server, 15 full minutes for every hour.
(I'm just using this one as an example because it's the easiest to highlight my point)
I may have misinterpreted what you're trying to say, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can extrapolate my data to say 23.9% of the time the TPS is below 15. When you look at my results on a graph (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bss0sr77w40bx92/Cyphur.png?dl=0), it's pretty clear the TPS drops below 15 very rarely, and for nowhere near the 7.5 minutes your analysis would suggest.
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I'd like to know why you're saying she can't use luis's evidence to draw conclusions when that's what you and livid both did originally. If you guys can, so can she.
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At Cyphur's farm:
normcdf(0,15,19.48,6.35)=0.239=23.9%
This one hurts my soul. That's almost 1/4 of all your time on the server, 15 full minutes for every hour.
(I'm just using this one as an example because it's the easiest to highlight my point)
I may have misinterpreted what you're trying to say, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can extrapolate my data to say 23.9% of the time the TPS is below 15. When you look at my results on a graph (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bss0sr77w40bx92/Cyphur.png?dl=0), it's pretty clear the TPS drops below 15 very rarely, and for nowhere near the 7.5 minutes your analysis would suggest.
They're analysis *suggests* that it's my farm that lags for 8.5 minutes. lol.
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I'd like to know why you're saying she can't use luis's evidence to draw conclusions when that's what you and livid both did originally. If you guys can, so can she.
Have I used Luis's evidence? I'd like you to link me to where i've actually used luis's graphs in my debates. Please, go look, you wont find it lmao Don't just defend your girlfriend if it means your accusing people, legend.
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I'd like to know why you're saying she can't use luis's evidence to draw conclusions when that's what you and livid both did originally. If you guys can, so can she.
What is there to draw conclusions from? I didn't use Luis's data as a starting point to go off and extrapolate new, nonsense data. Luis's post was a report, along with a recommendation of what could be done. That's what I cited. What your girlfriend is suggesting is an extrapolation, which, I'll have you know, is something no respectable statistician, mathematician or other quantitative researcher does. Well, at least not a reputable one who actually wants a good grade in such a module, at least.
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I'd like to know why you're saying she can't use luis's evidence to draw conclusions when that's what you and livid both did originally. If you guys can, so can she.
Have I used Luis's evidence? I'd like you to link me to where i've actually used luis's graphs in my debates. Please, go look, you wont find it lmao Don't just defend your girlfriend if it means your accusing people, legend.
Please don't bring our relationship into this. We are independent people with independent thoughts. It's a fucking video game. You act like you're fighting for your life. I'll be off the forums for a little while because I cannot stand anymore to read your unnecessarily aggressive and frankly universally upsetting words and because there are more important things than a video game in my life. Thanks, please don't contact me or @ me.
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So when I get accused of shit I need to just let it happen??? Okay haha, sounds fair. and instead of providing me the two quotes for stuff you accused me of you get salty at me and say i'm being aggressive,
If you think these replies are agressive... jeez.. lol, you gotta toughen up.
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I'd like to know why you're saying she can't use luis's evidence to draw conclusions when that's what you and livid both did originally. If you guys can, so can she.
Have I used Luis's evidence? I'd like you to link me to where i've actually used luis's graphs in my debates. Please, go look, you wont find it lmao Don't just defend your girlfriend if it means your accusing people, legend.
Please don't bring our relationship into this. We are independent people with independent thoughts. It's a fucking video game. You act like you're fighting for your life. I'll be off the forums for a little while because I cannot stand anymore to read your unnecessarily aggressive and frankly universally upsetting words and because there are more important things than a video game in my life. Thanks, please don't contact me or @ me.
It's a video game but people are acting like they have a degree in Economics talking about some imaginary inflation and about implementing Marxist economics to make it so people earn money more "honestly". Interesting how your tone changed so quickly. Yes, it's a video game - these things are not necessary, and are, as I've been saying, an overstep, primarily by people who are too bored or incapable of actually doing something with their own lives, and wish to live out their fantasies on here, like it's some sort of 4chan forum.
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I took it down because I want Octo to stop. I genuinely don't know what was wrong with my calculations. I don't know what people are misconstruing, it's just elementary statistics. If anyone else brings my personal intelligence or relationship into this I'd like to ask you to, with all due respect, get a fucking life for once. Some of you have been so rude and aggressive. I don't even want to be here anymore. I'm sorry everyone. I shouldn't be here and I never should have
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I took it down because I want Octo to stop. I genuinely don't know what was wrong with my calculations. I don't know what people are misconstruing, it's just elementary statistics. If anyone else brings my personal intelligence or relationship into this I'd like to ask you to, with all due respect, get a fucking life for once. Some of you have been so rude and aggressive. I don't even want to be here anymore. I'm sorry everyone. I shouldn't be here and I never should have
You want me to stop debating this vote? This vote that if it passes will make me not want to play the server i've played for 7 years lol. Sorry I won't.
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Heyo, everyone needs to get off forums and take a breather. This is an issue on VC that we all need to discuss, but it has suddenly become personal (on both sides).
Yes, lets remember its a video game, but one that people come on to have fun and enjoy themselves. Lets remember we are a community, we can disagree on things, but we should all try to be respectful of one another.
Hope you all have a good day, take some time to relax off forums, and maybe get some fresh air when appropriate.
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I took it down because I want Octo to stop. I genuinely don't know what was wrong with my calculations. I don't know what people are misconstruing, it's just elementary statistics. If anyone else brings my personal intelligence or relationship into this I'd like to ask you to, with all due respect, get a fucking life for once. Some of you have been so rude and aggressive. I don't even want to be here anymore. I'm sorry everyone. I shouldn't be here and I never should have
I wasn't doubting your calculations, it's just maths I've not done before, which is why I was a bit confused. It wasn't meant to be an attack towards you, sorry if it came across that way
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I took it down because I want Octo to stop. I genuinely don't know what was wrong with my calculations. I don't know what people are misconstruing, it's just elementary statistics. If anyone else brings my personal intelligence or relationship into this I'd like to ask you to, with all due respect, get a fucking life for once. Some of you have been so rude and aggressive. I don't even want to be here anymore. I'm sorry everyone. I shouldn't be here and I never should have
I wasn't doubting your calculations, it's just maths I've not done before, which is why I was a bit confused. It wasn't meant to be an attack towards you, sorry if it came across that way
It's literally just a function you can run on any calculator with a statistics button. I don't know how people are saying it's not valid. For clarification, I'm not saying you said it was invalid, but some people have
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I took it down because I want Octo to stop. I genuinely don't know what was wrong with my calculations. I don't know what people are misconstruing, it's just elementary statistics. If anyone else brings my personal intelligence or relationship into this I'd like to ask you to, with all due respect, get a fucking life for once. Some of you have been so rude and aggressive. I don't even want to be here anymore. I'm sorry everyone. I shouldn't be here and I never should have
I wasn't doubting your calculations, it's just maths I've not done before, which is why I was a bit confused. It wasn't meant to be an attack towards you, sorry if it came across that way
It's literally just a function you can run on any calculator with a statistics button. I don't know how people are saying it's not valid. For clarification, I'm not saying you said it was invalid, but some people have
Huh, I guess we get taught less stats here in the UK than over there, I don't remember ever being taught this in school. Learn something new every day.
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Heyo, everyone needs to get off forums and take a breather. This is an issue on VC that we all need to discuss, but it has suddenly become personal (on both sides).
Yes, lets remember its a video game, but one that people come on to have fun and enjoy themselves. Lets remember we a re a community, we can disagree on things, but we should all try and be respectful of one another.
Hope you all have a good day, take some time to relax off forums and maybe get some fresh air when appropriate.
you know, all this votes really done is push me away from the server, (and some other long term players) I wont be playing if this is passed so I'm gonna continue to fight against it until it passes or doesnt. Sure, we are supposed to be a community, but then people decide to just try to ban a huge aspect of the game for some people, The community aspect was gone for me once this started. I see staff as split right now so maybe we aren't as much of one as we thought anyways. And it's never been like this until recently, and I'm not the only person whos observed this. I knew going into this rule that it was a false cause false fix kind of thing, so I'm fighting against it hard because I want to continue to play VillageCraft as I always have, without fucking bandaid fix restrictions lmao. and If I can't then I simply wont, I will leave the server. as protoape said, it's a game and my time is worth more to me then being a staff member volunteering my timeon a minecraft server that has a ban on the biggest part of the game for me. Ask yourself, would you continue to be staff JUST to be staff, or want to keep playing? probably not if you had a huge aspect of the game just stripped from you with no definite cause, just claims and accusations. Have fun loosing one of your oldest playing staff members and players who is still *actively* around. Just for some farm rules being pushed. It's not even about making money on VC either, its straight up that this is a false solution. albeit temporary, it is indeed pushing people away from the server and you can't deny that.
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All of the insults and personal attacks in this thread need to stop. The first thing I always say when i make a discussion thread is to be nice to each other and consider each others opinions, something that I think is important whenever anything is discussed, and especially so with something as volatile as this.
I understand that some of you might not like this vote, or might not believe statistics that were based off of real data that luis gathered, but to bring personal attacks and insults against someone's intelligence and bringing my relationship into this was not necessary, and in fact quite rude.
Because of all of the personal attacks and insults, protoape said she will not be on the discord or forums, as she is currently having a panic attack and finds it not worth her time or health to try to explain anything to people who are unable, or unwilling, to listen to anything, and instead resort to personal attacks.
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All of the insults and personal attacks in this thread need to stop. The first thing I always say when i make a discussion thread is to be nice to each other and consider each others opinions, something that I think is important whenever anything is discussed, and especially so with something as volatile as this.
I understand that some of you might not like this vote, or might not believe statistics that were based off of real data that luis gathered, but to bring personal attacks and insults against someone's intelligence and bringing my relationship into this was not necessary, and in fact quite rude.
Because of all of the personal attacks and insults, protoape said she will not be on the discord or forums, as she is currently having a panic attack and finds it not worth her time or health to try to explain anything to people who are unable, or unwilling, to listen to anything, and instead resort to personal attacks.
Point out the personal insults. I don't believe any have been made? and also, WHEN DID VC BECOME SO PG13????
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Good Morning everyone!
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone this is a restriction, not a ban. You still get to use your farms if this is passed, it is only closing farm use when the server is at higher capacity, which is where we see the most lag visually. I know this is a touchy subject but this rule is not to ruin anyone's gameplay. It is an attempt to help players in times we see the most lag.
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Good Morning everyone!
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone this is a restriction, not a ban. You still get to use your farms if this is passed, it is only closing farm use when the server is at higher capacity, which is where we see the most lag visually. I know this is a touchy subject but this rule is not to ruin anyone's gameplay. It is an attempt to help players in times we see the most lag.
well, it's already ruined my gameplay, which is why I'm not playing as of right now.
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How so Octo? you can still come on and farm. I'm just trying to see how your gameplay is ruined, seeing as the server usually has less then 10 people on. When there is more then 10 you could explore other aspects of minecraft like building and exploring the map.
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How so Octo? you can still come on and farm. I'm just trying to see how your gameplay is ruined, seeing as the server usually has less then 10 people on. When there is more then 10 you could explore other aspects of minecraft like building and exploring the map.
Because this is a huge option of the game for me. and 10 is what the servers low is usually around the times that I would typically play. and i'm not gonna waste my time working on my homes if this is going to be implemented.
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But this is also only until 1.16, so working on your homes for a little bit would be something to do. I understand you don't like this rule, but I know I wouldn't throw away 7 years over a rule that is only for a little bit :-\
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I just wanted to hop on to point out a couple of things. First of all, while protoape was using some big brain energy using Luis' data, it's technically invalid since the entire basis of normalcdf is reliant on it being a normal curve, meaning that the data would have to look something like this: (https://spss-tutorials.com/img/normal-distribution-iq-scores-example.png)
Now, given Luis' σ's, the data would not look like this, as one standard deviation from the mean would have a value of either around 13-15 and 23-25, which I personally have never seen the tps hit. Another standard deviation would then be 8-10 and 28-30. By the time we reach the second σ, this should encompass approximately 95.4% of our data. To get the rest we have to do yet another deviation.
tl;dr the curve isn't normal so calculations for a normal curve can't be done.
Also, there has been less discussion on this thread and more just outright aggression. We are all adults here.
People upset if this vote passes: I personally haven't seen 10+ people on often, and there's plenty to do other than use a farm. If your gameplay was just consisting of sitting at your farm and talking to people, they just go somewhere else and talk to people, or build a smaller farm and operate that when 10+ people are on. While this isn't ideal I can tell, it is what it is.
People who are voting yes on this vote: It should be understood that while you may think this is just people overreacting, some people enjoy getting on and afking at farms and chatting people up while they do it, or some people use them to fund certain projects they want, etc. and you should be considerate and understanding that some people are going to be upset - they're losing an aspect of villagecraft that they enjoy if 10 people get online. It is frustrating both ways.
We all know how to treat other's opinions with respect, and we all know how to treat others with respect. Think before you post. Have empathy for those affected by this. Be understanding of people affected by lag which may or may not be caused by farms. This isn't permanent and there's no need to be rude and dismissive to everyone, and that goes on both sides.
another tl;dr we need more love and respect up in this bitch :-*
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I have seen tps hit 23, not 30 though
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Luis's test is not a live under-load VC test, so can't be used as a control, but it is an interesting reference evidence. It needs to be considered against anecdotal evidence on the live server in my opinion.
This is indeed not the ultimate solution to the problem, which is why it is written to be a temporary measure. If passed, it will serve as a test to see if it does indeed help make a noticeable dent.
I would agree with this if there was any way to actually use live VC as a test, but that would be incredibly difficult. I'll list the problems I see with using the actual server for data collection.
1. Player amounts go up and down, as well as the amount of strain they're putting on the server.
2. If farms are indeed a cause of the lag, then there could be multiple players on with farms or no players on with farms, skewing the data.
3. How would we even compare the two data sets before and after rule? You cant take a random sample and you cant take and average to compare because of the issues above.
I'm definitely not a stats genius so if those can be solved thats good. In addition the problem with relying on anecdotal evidence is exactly that, its anecdotal. I think placebo would be a very big issue if we're relying on player reports. Survey is also the weakest method of data collection, and thats if its formalized, which it hasn't been.
I think it would be fantastic if we could use live VC to collect data if we can find a way to mitigate the above problems.
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Its pretty clear the the vote will most likely pass unless something drastic happens or theirs a group of people who have yet to vote. This thread is just turning into a pissing match at this point from my view. I suggest we lock it and let the rest vote on whats already been said.
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Luis's test is not a live under-load VC test, so can't be used as a control, but it is an interesting reference evidence. It needs to be considered against anecdotal evidence on the live server in my opinion.
This is indeed not the ultimate solution to the problem, which is why it is written to be a temporary measure. If passed, it will serve as a test to see if it does indeed help make a noticeable dent.
I would agree with this if there was any way to actually use live VC as a test, but that would be incredibly difficult. I'll list the problems I see with using the actual server for data collection.
1. Player amounts go up and down, as well as the amount of strain they're putting on the server.
2. If farms are indeed a cause of the lag, then there could be multiple players on with farms or no players on with farms, skewing the data.
3. How would we even compare the two data sets before and after rule? You cant take a random sample and you cant take and average to compare because of the issues above.
I'm definitely not a stats genius so if those can be solved thats good. In addition the problem with relying on anecdotal evidence is exactly that, its anecdotal. I think placebo would be a very big issue if we're relying on player reports. Survey is also the weakest method of data collection, and thats if its formalized, which it hasn't been.
I think it would be fantastic if we could use live VC to collect data if we can find a way to mitigate the above problems.
Well, I mean, what better way to test this temporary restriction than to actually have it in effect on the live server? In this case, anecdote is helpful, but I do indeed understand the placebo problem in this case.
My vote is currently an abstain, but I'm leaning towards a yes because I'd like to see if this does get positive results for players. If it doesn't, it's temporary so whatever.
To someone like Octo saying this ruins his gameplay and he doesn't want to "waste his time building a house" or whatever, this is just weird to me. You do you, but how is sitting at a farm fun? I don't get it. And if your farm is harming others' gameplay, do you respect that? Can you try this temporary rule out without quitting altogether?
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This is probably one of the funniest threads with the amount of petty ass drama over a small restriction on large automated farms to see whether they reduce lag or not.
Come on now, guys. :-*
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Good Morning everyone!
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone this is a restriction, not a ban. You still get to use your farms if this is passed, it is only closing farm use when the server is at higher capacity, which is where we see the most lag visually. I know this is a touchy subject but this rule is not to ruin anyone's gameplay. It is an attempt to help players in times we see the most lag.
well, it's already ruined my gameplay, which is why I'm not playing as of right now.
How can something that isn't even in effect ruin your game play? This makes no sense.
And even if it does come into effect, you can still do your thing if under 10 ppl are on. And it's only until the next update.
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I took it down because I want Octo to stop. I genuinely don't know what was wrong with my calculations. I don't know what people are misconstruing, it's just elementary statistics. If anyone else brings my personal intelligence or relationship into this I'd like to ask you to, with all due respect, get a fucking life for once. Some of you have been so rude and aggressive. I don't even want to be here anymore. I'm sorry everyone. I shouldn't be here and I never should have
You are perfectly free to post calculations and ideas and have your own opinions. You do deserve to be here, you can and should still play here, and you are more than welcome here. Please don't get downtrodden by disagreeing, and perhaps aggressive disagreeing, replies to your posts. Regardless of those replies, you are 100% welcome to keep playing and posting your ideas. You won't ever be silenced.
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Good Morning everyone!
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone this is a restriction, not a ban. You still get to use your farms if this is passed, it is only closing farm use when the server is at higher capacity, which is where we see the most lag visually. I know this is a touchy subject but this rule is not to ruin anyone's gameplay. It is an attempt to help players in times we see the most lag.
well, it's already ruined my gameplay, which is why I'm not playing as of right now.
How can something that isn't even in effect ruin your game play? This makes no sense.
And even if it does come into effect, you can still do your thing if under 10 ppl are on. And it's only until the next update.
Another thing to add is that you clearly don't care about if other people's gameplay is ruined or not Octo, which is the whole point of this regulation -- a means to cut down lag for other players on the server. But for some reason you repeatedly tell players that your gameplay is already ruined by a regulation that hasn't even passed yet, that will rarely be in effect ALL WHILE expecting players to care about your experience when you don't give a fuck about theirs. Backwards as fuck man.
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Luis's test is not a live under-load VC test, so can't be used as a control, but it is an interesting reference evidence. It needs to be considered against anecdotal evidence on the live server in my opinion.
This is indeed not the ultimate solution to the problem, which is why it is written to be a temporary measure. If passed, it will serve as a test to see if it does indeed help make a noticeable dent.
I would agree with this if there was any way to actually use live VC as a test, but that would be incredibly difficult. I'll list the problems I see with using the actual server for data collection.
1. Player amounts go up and down, as well as the amount of strain they're putting on the server.
2. If farms are indeed a cause of the lag, then there could be multiple players on with farms or no players on with farms, skewing the data.
3. How would we even compare the two data sets before and after rule? You cant take a random sample and you cant take and average to compare because of the issues above.
I'm definitely not a stats genius so if those can be solved thats good. In addition the problem with relying on anecdotal evidence is exactly that, its anecdotal. I think placebo would be a very big issue if we're relying on player reports. Survey is also the weakest method of data collection, and thats if its formalized, which it hasn't been.
I think it would be fantastic if we could use live VC to collect data if we can find a way to mitigate the above problems.
Well, I mean, what better way to test this temporary restriction than to actually have it in effect on the live server? In this case, anecdote is helpful, but I do indeed understand the placebo problem in this case.
My vote is currently an abstain, but I'm leaning towards a yes because I'd like to see if this does get positive results for players. If it doesn't, it's temporary so whatever.
Yeah thats fair, I just dont want for us to rely too much on shaky evidence.
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So I did some data gathering on another type of farm: large pumpkin farms. With the large amount of redstone being activated, the immense numbers of pistons to be processed, and the item entities from the pumpkins, these can have the potential to cause lag if one is not careful.
The farm I selected to be tested is the Mountain Dwelling pumpkin farm. In order to measure the impact of a farm without having Large amounts of terrain/10+ players to simulate activity, I selected a different metric for my tests: MSPT.
MSPT, or Milliseconds Per Tick, is a measure of how long the server took to process a given tick. if it exceeds 50 mspt, the server will miss the time window for the tick to execute, and the tps will decrease.
In order to accurately measure the farm without spending large amounts of time testing, I elected to install a toolkit known as the carpet mod. This mod adds numerous functionality specialized toward in-depth farm development, one of which is the "tick warp" function. The Tick warp removes the 20 tick maximum restriction and permits the game to run as fast as possible to simulate much more gameplay with significantly less time.
To Isolate specifically the farm, The farm was WE'd into a void world, meaning that there was quite literally nothing else around the farm to incur mspt penalties. Everything not pertaining to the farm itself was also removed, and items collected were directed into lava. As such, this test does not measure the following: The impact of hoppers from the item storage, The impact of surrounding terrain, the impact of the other farms near mountain dwelling. The test focused on the largest farm in the complex.
The Tests were performed using my i5-8400 CPU, with 4 GB of allocated RAM. GPU does not affect internal server performance.
The Tests, and results, are as follows:
Test 0: Void
For this test, I moved to a location without the farm, with quite literally nothing for at least 1k blocks in any direction. This test establishes a baseline mspt for the void world.
Test Duration: Simulated 72000 ticks (1hr)
Results: Server ran with average mspt of .2, speeding through the test at a blazing fast 5122 tps.
Test 1: Farm on rapid clock speed
For this test, I configured the farm with an Ethonian Hopper clock, with a period of 51.15 seconds (1 stack of items). I did run this and subsequent tests for a lesser amount of time such that I was not waiting for the data all day.
Clock: Ethonian Hopper Clock (Period = 51.15 seconds)
Test Duration: Simulated 12000 ticks (20 mins)
Result: Server ran with average mspt of 12.01, considering baseline mspt, we can deduce that the farm on a high clock speed "costs" approximately 12.01 mspt on average.
Test 2: Farm on slower clock speed
For this test, I configured the clock to run with a period of 4min16s, the max an ethonian hopper clock can run for.
Clock: Ethonian Hopper Clock (Period = 256seconds (4m16s))
Test Duration: Simulated 12000 ticks (20 mins)
Result: Server ran with average mspt of 6.22, with baseline mspt, we can deduce that the farm on a high clockspeed "costs" approximately 6.02 mspt on average.
Test 4: Farm off
For this test I disconnected the clock completely and investigated how the server handled the farm on idle
Clock: None
Test Duration: Simulated 12000 ticks (20 mins)
Result: Server ran with average mspt of 2.44 mspt "cost": 2.24 mspt
From these results, it is evident that the clock frequency has a large effect on the mspt "cost" of the farm, incurring heavy penalties over when the farm simply idles, and heavier when the clock cycles more frequently. This is indicative of the fact that the largest mspt cost occur when the farm actually fires. Hence, I performed Test 4.
Test 4: When Firing
For This test, I started the warp after pressing a button to fire the farm once. The duration was calibrated as best as I could to only include the segment of time in which the pistons were extending on the farm.
Clock: Manual Activation
Test Duration: 400 ticks (20 seconds)
Result: Server ran with an average of 24.84 mspt, indicating that the firing sequence of the farm costs 24.64 mspt, for its short duration.
between tests 3 and 4, I think its evident that while a pumpkin farm does not cause increases in mspt most of the time, while the farm fires there is a sharp, sustained, increase in mspt, which if the server mspt is already abnormally high, can cause great lag for players on server. If the server is already running borderline, at 50 mspt, an increase of 20mspt can already decrease tps below 15. this decreased tps would also increase the amount of time until the farm completes its firing cycle, as they are usually redstone activated, which is tied to the tps.
Error Sources: This data is not nearly of the same quality of the data provided by luis in former posts. I don't have the ability to easily pull instantaneous mspt data into a spreadsheet/graph. Furthermore, the server has differing hardware than I do, hence this data is not indicative of actual server impact.
Conclusion: As I have neither any way of simulating the actual VC server, both in back end, and specific hardware, the absolute numbers in this data should not be compared to the actual server. Instead, This data demonstrates the relative impact that a pumpkin farm like mountain dwelling can have on mspt. The relative differences between the mspt data demonstrates that farms like Mountain Dwelling have large impacts on server performance specifically when they are firing and harvesting the pumpkins, and significantly reduced impact when idle.
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The amount of work and research going into this rule lol
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mmmmfarm bad hrrrggghhh
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The amount of work and research going into this rule lol
I would prefer work and research to go into a rule like this, considering how much it could affect people's ability to farm. Everyone against the rule was complaining about not seeing data supporting the fact that farms can cause lag, so people collected data. I would consider this a good thing, it would be better than passing it with no tests.
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For what it's worth, in the past 7 days, there's been 714 minutes where 10 or more people have been online (7.7% - 1h42m per day avg). If you look at the past 28 days, that gives 2919 minutes (12.1% - 1h14m per day avg) of the time with 10 or more players online.
With regards to the portal-based farms, there's been 3049 minutes (32.9% - 7h16m per day avg) in the past 7 days with 6 or more people online. Similarly for the past 28 days that's 10,119 minutes (42.0% - 5h34m per day avg) with 6 or more.
I have seen tps hit 23, not 30 though
In the past 28 days, TPS has been >= 23 only 2.3% (597 minutes) of the time, and >= 30 for 0.3% (65 minutes) of the time. They're instantaneous TPS values taken one minute apart though, so take it with caution.
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For what it's worth, in the past 7 days, there's been 714 minutes where 10 or more people have been online (7.7% - 1h42m per day avg). If you look at the past 28 days, that gives 2919 minutes (12.1% - 1h14m per day avg) of the time with 10 or more players online.
With regards to the portal-based farms, there's been 3049 minutes (32.9% - 7h16m per day avg) in the past 7 days with 6 or more people online. Similarly for the past 28 days that's 10,119 minutes (42.0% - 5h34m per day avg) with 6 or more.
I have seen tps hit 23, not 30 though
In the past 28 days, TPS has been >= 23 only 2.3% (597 minutes) of the time, and >= 30 for 0.3% (65 minutes) of the time. They're instantaneous TPS values taken one minute apart though, so take it with caution.
Now THIS is a good few statistics, thanks so much luis. Anyone who thinks this ruins their gameplay should consider this.
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This vote has passed.
Considering a start time wasn't defined in the vote, and to give everyone time to get sorted for it, I propose this rule will come into effect at 00:01 EST on Monday (2020-05-04), or in other words, the start of next week. This can be changed if anyone objects
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Sounds good to me!
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I decided to check and see when this would end on the server now that we have moved into 1.16. If I counted correctly then after Friday, October 23, 2020. This Parliament vote will be VOID.
Personally I haven't had any major lag issues since 1.16 (when I have it's been completely on my internet side)
so I hope this means we won't have to worry about reestablishing something similar to this rule in effect
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15 days have passed since VillageCraft updated to the next major version of Minecraft, so in accordance with this vote, this rule has now expired and limits on farms will no longer be enforced