Village rule violation : CRH244

[soggywafflezz (OP)]

Accused player: CRH224
Accused of: Keeping items in a no keep zone.
Player effected: SoggyWafflezz
Time occurred: 12/28/2021 at 10:35PST
Location: Ambrose
Co-ordinates: XYZ 12061.207 / 74.00000 / 16849.714
(For unlawful attack reports) If in a village, was PVP on or off? Pvp is on in the village.
Brief summary of what happened: What has happened is we were in Ambrose Kingdom
courtyard and CRH killed me and gave me back all my stuff except my elven axe, it clearly states in Ambrose rules that are made public that all items dropped after pvp is no keeps.

[CRH244]

I killed you because you were attacking me. At the time, there was a sign at Ambrose's rule board that stated all pvp needed to have consent from both parties. You violated the rules by attempting to kill me when I had not given consent. You broke a village rule and I did so in turn, however I am now wishing I had not returned what I did. However I don't think that any of that even matters because I don't believe those village rules can be enforced by staff. Pvp was turned on in the village, why would some sign saying that pvp is ONLY allowed in this pvp on area if there is consent and that all pvp is no keeps, matter? To my knowledge, staff don't enforce village rules unless they are already part of existing rules, such as no griefing allowed. Would a player be punished if they randomly stumbled upon Ambrose without knowledge that they weren't suppose to kill in a pvp on area? We both broke silly player made pvp rules in a pvp on area so I don't think any harm was done.

[FroggyBee]

In response to what CRH said, the rules on our rule board were a bit wonky and I logged on today to see they had been removed. I know some people placed some rules up there that were jokes, like the "killing royalty is encouraged" sign. (which is technically against the rules, but everyone does it anyways and no harm is really done)
But in our rule book that we have had up next to the board, the first rule stated is "1. PVP in Ambrose is allowed to an extent. No excessive killing is allowed unless the other party is okay with it."
This applies to excessive killing, like repeated killing or PvP matches were they kill each other often. It is very hard to regulate who is consenting for PvP when there is always so many people at the castle and so many people who like to just jump in and start killing each other.
The second rule in our rule book states "2. ALL PVP IS NO KEEPS! ANY items kept from PVP without permission is considered theft and against VC rules." I know our rules are confusing and not well put together, but the #1 rule that we make VERY clear is that any PvP that happens in Ambrose is no keeps. If you are added as a member in Ambrose, it is expected that you understand that just being there is an automatic no keeps PvP agreement.
I have been trying to consistently add rules into the rule book to make things more clear for village members, and I did add a sign next to the rule board to read the rule book for a more specific explanation of the rules. We have PvP turned on for a reason, and it's to have fun. If you don't want no keeps PvP, or no PvP at all, don't come to Ambrose.
I also try to encourage everyone in Ambrose to read the rules beforehand.
Hope this helps :>

[CRH244]

Another reason as to why I believe staff wouldn't and don't enforce these kinds of pvp rules in an area with pvp on since some can be changed on a whim, some can be jokes, and some can be disregarded. I believe that the only punishment for this could be from the owners of the village and should be given to both me and waffles since we both broke the village pvp rules.

[CRH244]

Linked is a screenshot showing that consent was needed for pvp according to village rules incase further proof was needed. https://imgur.com/a/aVObuzE

[FroggyBee]

Waffles did break the rules that were in place at the time and we will deal with that. That is something we can talk to him about and make sure that rules in place won't be broken again. The rules that were on the board were changed every so often, but nothing in our rule book about PvP has been changed since this happened. I'm not trying to deny that there was a rule on the board saying that PvP has to have consent from both parties, but it's really hard to regulate everything everyone does in a village this big and with so many people who hang around all the time. Nobody else who started PvP in Ambrose without consent from the other party was punished because majority of the time it's not a problem.
That being said, two wrongs don't make a right and if there was really an issue with the non consensual PvP, you should have messaged a village owner. I do know that you were consulted with the person involved before this was posted and still refused to return the one item that was obtained through PvP inside the Ambrose limits. I'm trying to be very clear and consistent on our village rules and I would have rather this had been sorted out in game rather than here.

[CRH244]

I would hardly call being constantly pestered to return the item as being 'consulted' by waffles. I would've preferred this be sorted out in game as well, but as you can see I didn't make that choice.

[Kittypopping]

I came to you and asked you to give it back as an adult so we didn’t have to do this. You said no admitted to killing him at the courtyard and taking the axe and left it at that. The reason this is in forums to begin with is because a staff member advised us to post it here. You were given the option to sort this out when I reached out to try sort it out but you didn’t want to come to a conclusion there as you don’t believe you’re in the wrong for taking the item. I feel like you killing waffels was enough of a punishment, but taking an item that’s an event item and ignoring the rules of a person village isn’t fair. I even told you exactly what Froggy has just said. However you don’t think rules of a village should be enforced by staff which is why we’re here. You’re right this could’ve been sorted in game, however you didn’t want to.

[Shensley]

My question is whether or not CRH is a member of this village. If he's not, he has no obligation to follow the posted rules of the village. You cannot force a player into a no keeps pvp if they did not accept and agree to it, that's just not how it works. Having a village with pvp on is a risky move as it allows any player to wander in and start attacking if they choose so, and again, with no requirement to give the items back. If you got everything back except for one thing I'd consider yourself lucky and move on. This was just my two cents, staff as a whole will post a decision asap.

[Cbddallas]

The staff have discussed, and we are in agreement that under the rules, staff will only enforce pvp agreements, such as no keeps, when there is clear and specific agreement between the combatants prior to each incident or battle.  In the absence of an unambiguous and stated agreement between the players directly involved, enforcement is up to the village owner/s.

Villages with PVP enabled are treated the same PVP-wise as Outlands:

Under rule 10,
"Allowed:
- Fighting in the Outlands and anywhere else where PVP is ON is allowed.
- Fighting in uncommon Villages where PVP is ON is allowed.
- Fighting in Arenas is allowed.”

[FroggyBee]

In response to Shen, yes CRH was a village member and it is stated frequently in global chat that all PvP is no keeps in the village. He killed waffles right outside of the village bounds and took all of his stuff and that’s fair game. Only one item was stolen from waffles in the castle courtyard. I only responded to this post because it had to do with village rules at a place I regulate and I wanted to make a few things clear.

[Shensley]

Thanks for the clarification. However as stated, the village rule in question is not enforceable by staff and no action will be taken.

Topic locked.