This made me sad :(

[Akomine]

Uhh, so Freelix welcomes some more civil debate, so I'll keep the can of worms open.

And also, when I ask for respect for my religion, that was really directed more towards Airbo and all the shit I see here from him, and even though I have not proved that my God is alive, and again I cannot prove he is, I believe that I have proved that it is more than just a belief in random magic, and for that it does at least deserve to not be insulted and mocked all over VC forums for no apparent reason.

You have not and cannot prove your god exists, I agree. Until you do, it does just seem that you believe in "random magic" (your term).

So here's my questions:

1. If your god is real, why can't you prove he exists (shouldn't there be overwhelming proof by now)?

2. You are at odds with scientists, who have spent lifetimes researching and compiling evidence regarding evolution; do you think there is a vast conspiracy where they are all lying to us?

[SirLogiC]

Uhh, so Freelix welcomes some more civil debate, so I'll keep the can of worms open.

And also, when I ask for respect for my religion, that was really directed more towards Airbo and all the shit I see here from him, and even though I have not proved that my God is alive, and again I cannot prove he is, I believe that I have proved that it is more than just a belief in random magic, and for that it does at least deserve to not be insulted and mocked all over VC forums for no apparent reason.

You have not and cannot prove your god exists, I agree. Until you do, it does just seem that you believe in "random magic" (your term).

So here's my questions:

1. If your god is real, why can't you prove he exists (shouldn't there be overwhelming proof by now)?

2. You are at odds with scientists, who have spent lifetimes researching and compiling evidence regarding evolution; do you think there is a vast conspiracy where they are all lying to us?

I was under the impression you cannot prove that God exists. He is perfect, so he made the world flawlessly. There exists no proof he exists because that's what he wanted. The whole point being that you can only have faith he exists. Trying to prove God exists brings to mind the Tower of Babel story and something about proving God exists being blasphemy because it shows God isn't perfect.

[Akomine]

Uhh, so Freelix welcomes some more civil debate, so I'll keep the can of worms open.

And also, when I ask for respect for my religion, that was really directed more towards Airbo and all the shit I see here from him, and even though I have not proved that my God is alive, and again I cannot prove he is, I believe that I have proved that it is more than just a belief in random magic, and for that it does at least deserve to not be insulted and mocked all over VC forums for no apparent reason.

You have not and cannot prove your god exists, I agree. Until you do, it does just seem that you believe in "random magic" (your term).

So here's my questions:

1. If your god is real, why can't you prove he exists (shouldn't there be overwhelming proof by now)?

2. You are at odds with scientists, who have spent lifetimes researching and compiling evidence regarding evolution; do you think there is a vast conspiracy where they are all lying to us?

I was under the impression you cannot prove that God exists. He is perfect, so he made the world flawlessly. There exists no proof he exists because that's what he wanted. The whole point being that you can only have faith he exists. Trying to prove God exists brings to mind the Tower of Babel story and something about proving God exists being blasphemy because it shows God isn't perfect.

Some people might think this way, yeah, it's a logical fallacy though. It also has a series of logic flaws that I won't even get into (flawless world, eh?)
Concepts people need to grasp, and then take a good look at their own positions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presupposition

Faith is the suspension of critical thinking - belief without evidence. Faith is stupid.

[TheCatsMangler]

I'd like to say, you shouldn't take what air says seriously. He isn't really a faggot. It's just you look like a faggot when you take what he says to heart.

I heard somewhere about this rumor of God being dead.

I am in the middle of this war because my mother is Christian, same with my Grandmother, but my father isn't.

I don't know what really to believe, Ako does have a point. And if God was all powerful, why did he make such aggressive creatures? Like humans. Mostly power hungry. You have heard of Adam and Eve, they wanted power so they took the apple as suggested. Only because it held "Gods power".

If God is pure good, and the creator of all. Doesn't that cancel itself out? Because he also made evil and evil people?

Christian logic is that God makes everyone, but they are granted free will. So for instance, he made Hitler, and Hitler obviously had some sort of autism and that sort of thing. Which God made him have, thus making him start WW2?


I am interested in this topic. But I'm starting to side with atheists because, yeah he may of done all of this great stuff. But where is he now? The only proof we have is a book. Which could of just been made to read toddlers to sleep every night and then some crazy guy started taking it seriously.   

[ChaosMushrooms]

[Akomine]

I'd like to say, you shouldn't take what air says seriously. He isn't really a faggot. It's just you look like a faggot when you take what he says to heart.

If air isn't a faggot, why does he keep asking to suck my dick?

I heard somewhere about this rumor of God being dead.

I am in the middle of this war because my mother is Christian, same with my Grandmother, but my father isn't.

Since you're interested in this topic, it will be worth your while to look into each side as much as you can. Gain a decent understanding so you can make informed, educated decisions. It will be good for your brain and your wellbeing. (My biased tip: many religious people would prefer you NOT look into each side in depth, but rather just take what they say on "faith". This is unhealthy and dangerous - critical thinking is one of the best things about being a human being, so let's not suppress it.)

I don't know what really to believe, Ako does have a point. And if God was all powerful, why did he make such aggressive creatures? Like humans. Mostly power hungry. You have heard of Adam and Eve, they wanted power so they took the apple as suggested. Only because it held "Gods power".

The Adam and Eve story is quite bizarre. First of all, it is false; humans have been around for 1-2 million years, not a few thousand. Second of all, all of humanity does not descend from two individuals (evolution proves otherwise. Yes, Freelix, proves.).

Third, Adam and Eve are suddenly created and soon after meet two entities. One of them (God) tells them not to eat the fruit, the other (talking snake) says "ahh, don't listen to him, it's all good, go ahead". Not knowing what deception is (or much else for that matter, with no life experiences), Eve eats it and God decides to punish the entire human race forever because of it. We are now "fallen" and have to live in a world with evil and suffering... because God is a sociopathic asshole because someone ate a fruit.

This story is clearly false. Even if it is true, then why worship the vindictive evil douchebag (the christian God) responsible for all of the horrible things in the world? Especially when he could have kept it as a "perfect" world.

Oh and another thing: if god made everything, then god made the snake, thus god set up Adam and Eve for failure, thus god wanted the world to have evil and suffering.

If God is pure good, and the creator of all. Doesn't that cancel itself out? Because he also made evil and evil people?

Good point.

Christian logic is that God makes everyone, but they are granted free will. So for instance, he made Hitler, and Hitler obviously had some sort of autism and that sort of thing. Which God made him have, thus making him start WW2?

Many religious people claim that their god has a plan for everything. This seems to directly contradict free will. If everything is planned by their god, then their god is a pretty sick, disgusting, scary fucker.

I am interested in this topic. But I'm starting to side with atheists because, yeah he may of done all of this great stuff. But where is he now? The only proof we have is a book. Which could of just been made to read toddlers to sleep every night and then some crazy guy started taking it seriously.

Careful, all atheists are evil.

And to be clear: the bible is not proof of anything. It was written by several humans over several centuries. It contains plagiarism, editing, randomly inserted lines, a massive list of contradictions, and there are several different translations and different canons of different lengths. It's a complete clusterfuck. It's a work of humans. If the christian god wrote it or had people write it, it is probably one of the absolute worst ways to prove his existence. Why did he do such a bad job at communicating with us if he is PERFECT?

Keep thinking, catty; your brain is the best thing you've got. Unless you have a really nice ass or something, in which case it might be the best thing you've got.

[Airbongo (OP)]

wow ako, stop disrespecting my religion with your pagan logic.

[TheCatsMangler]

Here's something I was thinking about a moment ago, Christians (and most probably the bible), say that you won't go to hell if you do something bad and don't know God or Jesus exists.

This could be exploited. That and you could temporarily get brainwashed or whatever, and then sin about a thousand times. Get your memories back. Say sorry then you will be fine.

And what about the as long as you apologize for your sins thing, could you murder half a country. And then say sorry afterwards. And get a free ticket to heaven?

This all goes a lot deeper. But I would like to see it from a christian point of view. And a atheist's one.

[Akomine]

Here's something I was thinking about a moment ago, Christians (and most probably the bible), say that you won't go to hell if you do something bad and don't know God or Jesus exists.

There's an old joke about this, where a priest comes to the new world to tell the native Inuit people about Jesus:
Inuit: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Inuit: 'Then why did you tell me?'

This could be exploited. That and you could temporarily get brainwashed or whatever, and then sin about a thousand times. Get your memories back. Say sorry then you will be fine.

And what about the as long as you apologize for your sins thing, could you murder half a country. And then say sorry afterwards. And get a free ticket to heaven?

This all goes a lot deeper. But I would like to see it from a christian point of view. And a atheist's one.

Correct, in the Christian religion you can commit genocide, mass murder, rape, whatever, and still go to heaven as long as you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour (aka: you must believe in God). You mentioned Adolf Hitler, who yes, would quite possibly be in heaven due to this immoral rule.

When people claim that religion is a source of morals, they have no idea what they're talking about. Morals are derived by humans by secular means. Secular morals have made the modern world a much better place to live than when the world was completely ruled by religion.

Consider the status of homosexuals or women. Religion considers them 'lesser' and 'unclean', and commands a series of horrible things that need to happen to them. Homosexuals are to be put to death, for example. Hatred of gay people is directly derived from religion.

Luckily, secular morality has been creeping into our world more and more. Even many non-fundamentalist religious people nowadays will be fine with gay people. Some churches even accept them as members. It's something I don't understand though; if you can disregard one immoral rule in your bible, why not just ditch the whole immoral thing?

I'm an agnostic atheist, catty, so feel free to ask me anything. I'm happy to explain my view.

[SirLogiC]

Here's something I was thinking about a moment ago, Christians (and most probably the bible), say that you won't go to hell if you do something bad and don't know God or Jesus exists.

There's an old joke about this, where a priest comes to the new world to tell the native Inuit people about Jesus:
Inuit: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Inuit: 'Then why did you tell me?'

This could be exploited. That and you could temporarily get brainwashed or whatever, and then sin about a thousand times. Get your memories back. Say sorry then you will be fine.

And what about the as long as you apologize for your sins thing, could you murder half a country. And then say sorry afterwards. And get a free ticket to heaven?

This all goes a lot deeper. But I would like to see it from a christian point of view. And a atheist's one.

Correct, in the Christian religion you can commit genocide, mass murder, rape, whatever, and still go to heaven as long as you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour (aka: you must believe in God). You mentioned Adolf Hitler, who yes, would quite possibly be in heaven due to this immoral rule.

When people claim that religion is a source of morals, they have no idea what they're talking about. Morals are derived by humans by secular means. Secular morals have made the modern world a much better place to live than when the world was completely ruled by religion.

Consider the status of homosexuals or women. Religion considers them 'lesser' and 'unclean', and commands a series of horrible things that need to happen to them. Homosexuals are to be put to death, for example. Hatred of gay people is directly derived from religion.

Luckily, secular morality has been creeping into our world more and more. Even many non-fundamentalist religious people nowadays will be fine with gay people. Some churches even accept them as members. It's something I don't understand though; if you can disregard one immoral rule in your bible, why not just ditch the whole immoral thing?

I'm an agnostic atheist, catty, so feel free to ask me anything. I'm happy to explain my view.

Hitler would be in Hell, suicide is a mortal sin. Well at least it is in Catholicism. Also you can't just ask for forgiveness and get it, you have to actually mean it. Like if you murder, ask for forgiveness then murder again, well that doesn't really count.

Of course you know I don't care for Christianity much but you seem to be showing some misinformation too.

Yeah I don't care much for any religion. I have my own beliefs and and confident and happy with them. What I have a problem with is dogma that separates people, people that preach hate and use religion as an excuse, people that choose to hate others for silly reasons. Religion bashing is just as bad as religious haters.

"If you want the world to be a better place, be a better person."- me

[Akomine]

Hitler would be in Hell, suicide is a mortal sin. Well at least it is in Catholicism. Also you can't just ask for forgiveness and get it, you have to actually mean it. Like if you murder, ask for forgiveness then murder again, well that doesn't really count.

Of course you know I don't care for Christianity much but you seem to be showing some misinformation too.

Yeah I don't care much for any religion. I have my own beliefs and and confident and happy with them. What I have a problem with is dogma that separates people, people that preach hate and use religion as an excuse, people that choose to hate others for silly reasons. Religion bashing is just as bad as religious haters.

"If you want the world to be a better place, be a better person."- me

Haha forgot about the suicide is a sin thing, good correction. And, yes, I realize repentance is supposed to be sincere. At least I've heard that before, but I'd like to see where it is mentioned in the bible.

I disagree with you when you say "Religion bashing is just as bad as religious haters". Sorry, I'm not the one instilling the fear of eternal torture into non-believers, terrorizing gay people, or raping little kids and protecting the rapists from justice. I will continue to bash vile religious bullshit until there is nothing left to bash. It is risible, and I see no reason why it should get a free pass on criticism.

Where did I spread misinformation? I didn't mean to.


PS: lol @ the suicide being a capital sin thing. Oh THAT is the only thing stopping him from going to heaven. Not the senseless mass murder or anything. Immoral bullshit. A source of such evil, and yet people get their jimmies all rustled when someone decides to speak up against it. I'm even "as bad" as religious bigots for doing it some how. Ahhhh, fuck religion.