In light of the killing in Paris over a fucking cartoon of Muhammad (NSFW)

[SirLogiC]

I had a long reply but I came to a really good point, so here:

Removing religion won't stop wars, it won't stop hate crimes, it won't stop torture, it won't stop discrimination, it won't stop rape, it won't stop slavery, it won't stop social isolation.

I believe in attacking the cause, not the reason. Someone will kill a cartoonist for the reason it offends his religion. The cause is access to lethal weapons, thinking it's all right to kill, lack of tolerance of others' views. Removing religion won't stop hate killing. Making it hard to get weapons, giving a solid education that promotes critical thinking, having strong social leadership that promotes community, respect and tolerance (whether through religion, sport, debate, a productive work environment, etc).

[Akomine]

I had a long reply but I came to a really good point, so here:

Removing religion won't stop wars, it won't stop hate crimes, it won't stop torture, it won't stop discrimination, it won't stop rape, it won't stop slavery, it won't stop social isolation.

I believe in attacking the cause, not the reason. Someone will kill a cartoonist for the reason it offends his religion. The cause is access to lethal weapons, thinking it's all right to kill, lack of tolerance of others' views. Removing religion won't stop hate killing. Making it hard to get weapons, giving a solid education that promotes critical thinking, having strong social leadership that promotes community, respect and tolerance (whether through religion, sport, debate, a productive work environment, etc).

Nobody claimed removing religion will stop those things 100%, but it would stop a great many. Discrimination of homosexuals, for example, is specifically CAUSED by religious teachings.

Reason and cause are essentially synonymous with each other in this case (I even googled some etymology sites to make sure lol). Regardless, weapons will always be available (especially in an arms-dealing country like France). If religion is causing people to seek out lethal weapons to conduct mass murders over a picture of a religious figure, you can't just ignore it. The religion came first, then the guns were acquired to "defend" the religion.

A solid education that promotes critical thinking is NOT a religious education. Faith isn't critical thinking whatsoever, and often leads to decision-making with a poor or warped understanding. This, at the very least, makes for bad decisions in day-to-day life, voting, purchases, etc. Worse, it leads to murder, and worst it can lead to genocide... simply based on FAKE teachings. Literally believing that mass-killing cartoonists, who you feel have offended your prophet, will get you into heaven to see god involves FAITH in a RELIGION.

A religion that presents itself as the truth and commands martyrism is, quite simply, going to cause mass murders from time to time. You can't JUST focus on guns, you need to see faith/religion as a problem too.

[Freelix2000]

This is coming from someone who thinks religion is far more dangerous than helpful so I understand why people would post this, people were murdered over a satirical newspaper goddamnit, and everybody is freaking pissed. I also understand why Akomine has such strong feelings about this topic because like the rest of us, we're going to live our entire lives seeing tragedy after tragedy, people having their lives taken from them all because of religion. It's disturbing.

This is not the first tragedy religion has caused, and far from the last. Islam, specifically, is going to cause many many many more in the years to come. Just watch.

I don't think they want us to hate muslims, I think they are just strong adherents to their book and did as it commanded. We shouldn't hate all muslims just for being muslim, of course.

And you're right and I'm glad you understand.

I get that you disagree with religion, but there's no need to be disrespectful. Slamming someone's beliefs which they've held dear is just being a dick. In some cases religion helps people through their lives, it provides a moral compass and it takes the stress off of people's heads. Religion helps people cope with the world. I'm not saying that you can't say whatever you want, but what you are saying is extremely one sided.

Yes, there is a need to be disrespectful of religion. It is able to get people to fucking slaughter writers - I don't just disrespect that, I have complete contempt. If your religious beliefs tell you to do horrid crimes, overlook horrid crimes, or otherwise defend a belief system that causes horrid crimes, I don't care how "dear" they are to you, I am going to slam those beliefs for being asinine and dangerous.

Remember, I hate religion, not the person who holds that religion. Yes I know it can help people in their lives, help relieve stress. However, no, it does not provide a moral compass. Killing innocent people as a martyr is not a MORAL action. Slavery is not a moral thing. The hatred of homosexuals is not moral. The oppression of women is not moral. Punishing atheists with death is not moral. Religious books are not moral, and it bothers me that people try to say they are.

Do you really think religion is a moral guide?

I'm back, everyone. =P Someone please remind me which people I hate, because I forgot.

Anyways, it depends really. I don't think that Islam is much of a moral guide because it tells them to kill people, treat women unfairly and punish them severely for breaking pointless rules, but what about the ten commandments? Other religions tell people not to steal, kill, or commit adultery, and many also include a respect for the natural world. I think those are good morals set by religion.

[Akomine]

Religious books are not moral

I'm back, everyone. =P Someone please remind me which people I hate, because I forgot.

Anyways, it depends really. I don't think that Islam is much of a moral guide because it tells them to kill people, treat women unfairly and punish them severely for breaking pointless rules, but what about the ten commandments? Other religions tell people not to steal, kill, or commit adultery, and many also include a respect for the natural world. I think those are good morals set by religion.

The Bible tells adherents to kill people (a lot), treat women unfairly (rape a girl and pay her dad silver and she becomes your slave), and punish them severely for breaking pointless rules too (wearing two different fabrics at the same time, being gay, not worshiping 2000 year old jewish guy).

I already discussed why the 10 commandments aren't moral. I don't expect you to read this massive thread so I'll repeat it here:

The 10 Commandments List, Short Form
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

The first 4 have little to do with morality. The first 3 just depict a jealous "god" commanding people how to think. I could argue it is immoral to command people to worship you, to not speak badly about you, etc.

5 is obviously immoral if you have abusive parents. Say a little girl is raped and beaten by her father... must she honour him? The commandment says so. Howabout an orphan? Oops, guess god forgot about them. What are they supposed to do? What if a parent abandoned a child to die in a dumpster? Should probably honour them, right?

6 Funny how this one is in here isn't it? The bible is full of god murdering, commanding people to murder, genocide, rape, slavery, etc.
Sidenote: the commandments seem to forget about rape and slavery. Guess god fucked up on those ones eh?

7 This doesn't really have to do with morality either, does it? This actually seems to ignore the consenting adults who may want to consensually engage in "adultery", such as swingers. I could argue it's immoral to command people on how to live their lives in this respect.

8 Not bad I guess. It's vague though. Is taxation theft? Or the classic: Is stealing a loaf of bread for a starving child so bad?

9 Mhmm, next

10 Impossible. I argue it is immoral to command people to not do something that is impossible to not do.

The 10 commandments are a weird American phenomenon. They aren't really listed as 10 commandments as such in the bible. The bible has something like 460 other commandments throughout it, so what's with these 10? I don't quite understand why they are so popular. Some of them suck, some of them are just the human emotion of jealousy, they are missing obvious crimes, and they contradict other commands that god gives in the bible. Lastly, why would an all-powerful deity relay information in such a poor manner? A 2000 year old book written by a nomadic iron-age desert tribe who were mostly illiterate, that has, by sheer fucking chance, happened to survived into 2015... THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE GET THEIR MORALITY? It isn't moral. This isn't where people get their morality. I shouldn't have to say this.

[Lividup64]

[Akomine]

Yeah... about that... http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/02/21/i-do-not-see-him-as-a-terrorist-five-hundred-mourners-attend-funeral-of-copenhagen-gunman/

[Airbongo (OP)]

Yeah... about that... http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/02/21/i-do-not-see-him-as-a-terrorist-five-hundred-mourners-attend-funeral-of-copenhagen-gunman/

In short, Omar El-Hussein was a great Muslim brother. And that whole business about him stabbing and shooting people — c’mon, why you gotta be such a stickler, man?

[Witchdoctor1]

POLYTHEISM:

Because why have just ONE imaginary friend?

[Freelix2000]

I think a summary of the argument for religion in this debate is that religion itself is harmless. Most religions don't say that we need to take violent actions against people who don't follow, and the few that do are wrong and are not harmless. An extremist Christian who violently punishes people who don't carry out the ten commandments is wrong of course, but the ten commandments themselves just tell us to not murder, not commit adultery, and not steal, not to kill people who do murder, commit adultery, and steal. Someone believing that something someone else does is wrong is harmless, but if they choose to become intolerant of that and act violently, in most cases that is their culture or the way that they were raised, and that is wrong.

[Akomine]

I think a summary of the argument for religion in this debate is that religion itself is harmless. Most religions don't say that we need to take violent actions against people who don't follow, and the few that do are wrong and are not harmless. An extremist Christian who violently punishes people who don't carry out the ten commandments is wrong of course, but the ten commandments themselves just tell us to not murder, not commit adultery, and not steal, not to kill people who do murder, commit adultery, and steal. Someone believing that something someone else does is wrong is harmless, but if they choose to become intolerant of that and act violently, in most cases that is their culture or the way that they were raised, and that is wrong.

That is not a summary of this debate. Did you read it all?

Again, the randomly popular 10 commandments suck and are missing rape and slavery among other things... and they also involve a jealous deity demanding worship, all of which is pretty nonsensical when talking about morality.

[Witchdoctor1]

All forms of organized religion, from ancient animism/druidism to Zoroastrianism/Judaism/Christianity/Islam, espouse everything from rape, murder, slavery, subjugation of women and minorities, and plenty of other lovely practices that humans so love to perform on one another in the name of Dog, err.... god or something like that.

[Die_Endermen]