Author Topic: #PrayforIstanbul  (Read 183049 times)

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #31 on: 19 January 2016, 11:34:42 PM »
Me and Ako compiled a list:

Islamic Warmongering - Justifications for Violence and Killing
1.

Quran 2:191-193 - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)
The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

2.
Quran 2:216 - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

3.
Quran 2:193 - “And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.”
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. But if there are any wrong-doers around after you've killed off all the disbelievers, persecutors and aggressors, then you'll have to kill them too.

4.
Quran 3:151 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

5.
Quran 4:74 - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

6.
Quran 4:89 - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Kill non-believers. Don’t be their friends.

7.
Quran 4:95 - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward "
This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).

8.
Quran 8:12 - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

9.
Quran 8:67 - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."
Lol… warmongering.

10.
Quran 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

11.
Quran 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

12.
Quran 9:38-39 - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

13.
Quran 9:123 - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
Yet another call to arms.


Sources:
- http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/
- http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
- Not Fox News

Sure thing! I'll be glad to interpret these. (Your second source, btw, the religion of peace website, I've seen before. That guy knows little to nothing about Islam is is not a credible source.) Okay, hereeeeee we gooooooo...

1. Believe it or not, these two verses are in fact a continuation of 2:190. This is in fact actually relating to defensive warfare, for Prophet Muhammad and his followers were in fact under persecution at the time by Muhammad's own tribe, the Quraysh ("idtihad" does in fact mean persecution. Not only do I know this from taking Arabic classes, but there is a Turkish word similar to this with the same meaning, for many Turkish words originated from Arabic. This is the same with the word "fitna" that is used in the verse, but it is used in the exact same context as "idtihad" in the verse.). They were in fact under Qurayshi attack even while in Medina (ex: Battle of the Trench - Google it), but what is mentioned in the verse states that if an enemy was attacking you in war (believe me, I read the Quran), don't sit there passively and let them slaughter you. Even so, the verse still states to forgive them if they desist fighting, even if they wanted your head (I can provide you with various accounts later if ya want). Status: Debunked.

2. False. Nowhere has Muhammad ever mentioned that it's good to raid and loot caravans. Second, when mentioning fighting, this was in terms of defending the faith against those who wanted the faith and its people dead (this verse was revealed during the Battle of Badr or Uhud, can't remember which. Either way, they were the first and second wars the Quraysh triggered so that they could basically destroy the Muslims, and here it is mentioned that during times of war in which you defend the faith against persecutors, which in this case are the Quraysh, God will reward you for protecting your faith.).

Oh, and this isn't a hadith, a saying/quote of Prophet Muhammad. This is a verse from the Holy Quran, the very things God ordered upon and told the Muslims Himself (not directly, but via the Angel Jibreel/Gabriel to Muhammad quite often. So yeah, hadith =/= Quranic verse. Status: Debunked.

3. False. God is not ordering Muslims to exterminate everyone until they become Muslims. Basically the same explanation as the first two in terms of the religion-protecting, do-no-harm-to-those-desisting-fighting, all that good stuff. Alrighty then. Status: Debunked.

4. Nope. When mentioning "joining companions with Allah", it is in fact talking about polytheism, or associating other gods with God, the word "associating" being replaced with "joining". It is important to note, however (this is one of the reasons why people tend to misinterpret the Quran), that the term "Unbelievers" is not referring to all non-Muslims as a whole. "Unbelievers" are mentioned frequently in the Quran, but this is in fact a term that is referring to the Quraysh and their allies (who wanted Muhammad and Islam terminated) only. This basically mentions that the "Unbelievers" (referring to the Quraysh and their allies, not non-Muslims as a whole) will one day be in fear of the soon-to-come large following of Islam, but not in terms of fearing for their lives. Mmkay? Status: Debunked.

5. Again, this is related to the whole defend-the-faith-from-those-who-are-persecuting-it-and-you dealio. Those who defended the faith from those trying to destroy it (namely, the Quraysh) were not sent out to battle to rain utter havoc on the Quraysh (which would have been near-impossible to do anyway, considering that they were greatly outnumbered during the Battle of Badr and Battle of Uhud, which is around the time these verses were revealed), but to defend the religion from being wiped off the face of the Earth, which, believe it or not, might have happened if they hadn't fought back in order to defend themselves and their religion. Oh, and as for the whether-or-not-you-die-or-are-victorious thing, that's basically God's acknowledging the person defending their faith by rewarding them in the Hereafter (y'know, the afterlife) for giving their life so that their religion may live on.

You do have a very good point, however, when you said that verses like this are often the supposed theological "flawless foundation" that terrorists turn to to justify their actions which they believe to be "in the name of God". They too see this as an excuse to inflict death and unspeakable horrors in order to "defend the religion" (really? 1.2 billion followers and you have the urge to prevent "the persecution of your faith" by suicide bombing? Completely uncalled for in Islam.) Status: Debunked.

6. Kinda just talked about this. "They" is referring to the Quraysh, not those who don't believe in Islam as a whole. Basically saying don't trust them (the Quraysh) because they wish to see Islam perish and if they come in large numbers toward you (a Muslim, because they want to eliminate the followers of Islam), don't be a sitting duck and protect yourself and your faith (because, y'know, they kinda want to see you and your relatively small religion that doesn't have many followers like you dead). 'Nuff said. Status: Debunked.

7. Whoops, neglected to mention that there is a "greater" jihad and a "lesser" jihad. "Greater jihad" - Spiritual and moral striving to become a better Muslim and overall person. "Lesser jihad" (what this verse is referring to) - Defending the religion in wartime from those who want the religion annihilated (this is what terrorists think they're doing, but I think we can all agree that it is neither "defensive" nor is it "protecting" Islam from "persecution".). We all on the same page then? Great!

Yet again, this is about the protecting-your-religion-when-it-is-in-danger-and-being-persecuted situation. This verse is basically calling out those who are too cowardly to go defend their religion when it is under persecution, for they're valuing their own lives when they should be helping to defend their religion from those who want it gone, shaming them from refusing to go. Obviously, the elderly and disabled are exempt and are not recommended to go on account of their illnesses/handicaps/etc. Kind of like how coaches make players sit out games if they're injured for their own sake. Status: Debunked.

Since it was Ako and Air who lovingly set forth these claims for Livid and I to interpret and correct their misinterpretations of certain verses, which I already have done, it is only right that Livid interprets the second half of the batch of verses you two have provided.

Livid, you're up.

Lividup64

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #32 on: 20 January 2016, 10:42:31 AM »
Your sources are from an ironically named biased website which takes thinks out of context. You mentioned, 'Kill them wherever you find them;' al-Baqarah 2:190-194. If you read it in context from the start it says, 'Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you.' The Qur'an is not advocating for you do go out and kill random people, it clearly says only if they attack you, like in war. It also says 'but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors,' which clearly states that if you go around being aggressive to people Allah will not look favourably on you.

'And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them.' What does that say exactly? That's right, fight them ONLY if they fight you first. Kill them ONLY if they attempt to kill you first.

Please do not take things out of context because that is incredibly foolish and misunderstanding. That's like if someone said, 'I love children, I would kill them all if I were to hug them for too long'

>person picks out 'I would kill them all.'

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #33 on: 20 January 2016, 02:21:04 PM »
Ender I'm going to be honest, while I appreciate you responding to several of those points, I don't appreciate your assertion/assumption that YOUR interpretation of these verses is the universal correct/accurate interpretation, labeling them as debunked, and moving along as if the case is closed, or as if it solves the problem at hand. Because:

The point is not really how you interpret these verses, or what you consider to be the "real" interpretation. The point is that people interpret these verses in these ways, and do use them as inspiration and justification for their thoughts and actions. They would just as readily disagree with you on your interpretation.

Two different members of the same religion can spend all day arguing over what their holy books want them to do, and they can find arguments both ways and contradictions all over the place, and they can both label eachother as not real believers or followers. But at the end of the day, the verses in the books say some pretty insane shit, and people are told to believe it is the truth of the universe, so people act on that insane shit.

Quote
"Islamic" terrorists' motives are not rooted in Islam
You can say they don't root their motives in Islam, but it just isn't true. They very, very openly do. Not your interpretation of Islam? Doesn't matter. It's theirs, and they act on it. It's sticking your head in the sand if you refuse to acknowledge the religious element to this.

People like me and Air don't really care for a debate on every individual Muslim's interpretation of the verses, we don't follow the religion and don't have a stake in that argument (in fact we reject faith from the outset); what we're saying is that in the present day there is a noteworthy trend where Muslim extremists are bombing and mass shooting people for their own Islam-inspired reasons. Directly related to that trend is the statistically significant numbers of Muslims who hold radical views, even in many European countries, and how they may act and conduct themselves based on those views. The role of religion in their thinking is significant.



To be VERY clear: we are NOT generalizing, we are simply pointing out the demonstrable fact that in the present day, some Muslims are openly using their religion to inspire and justify violence, with hugely significant numbers of others holding radical religiously-taught views. I'm glad that you're on the same side as we are, that you denounce the violence.

But to argue they aren't Muslims, or to argue your interpretation of the Quran is better, or to say they don't "represent Islam" (whatever that means), doesn't solve the problem.

These are very religious people using their religion for inspiration and justification for immoral acts. Admit it. Don't dance around it.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2016, 02:26:54 PM by Akomine »

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

Offline gerrit70

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #34 on: 20 January 2016, 03:27:41 PM »
Thank you good sir. For fixing my post :D 

Btw #prayforpakistan another shooting 20 dead  :'(
Guh

I'm a huge faggot and I love sucking airs cock.

It is abysmal that any one person would take try to limit the happiness that Gerrit70 has brought to this dull place.

Free Gerrit70 from his chains!

holy fuck gerrit you're autistic.

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #35 on: 20 January 2016, 03:57:39 PM »
Ako, they're not Muslims. You can say that as many times as you want. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with what blasphemy is. Terrorists' actions are blasphemous, and as a result, they're out of the religion. That's that. You can call them Muslims, they can call themselves Muslims, but according to the actual guidelines of Islam, they're simply not Muslims. It's ironic how people don't get that. Plus, Livid brung up a good point when he mentioned that people tend to ask "real" Muslims whether or not they support ISIS. That's like going to a random Christian on the street and asking if he supports the KKK. Seem weird to do that? It's also weird asking if Muslims support the actions of a minority (who are no longer considered Muslims to begin with) consisting of hypocritical radicalized idiots.

Thank you for your time.

P.S.: Thanks for being courteous while trying to argue your point. Debates like these often tend to get out of hand really quickly.

Lividup64

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #36 on: 20 January 2016, 04:16:01 PM »
Is no one going to mention things being taken out of context? Mmmmkay

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #37 on: 20 January 2016, 04:48:30 PM »
@Ender: Classic No True Scotsman Fallacy. Your argument, from a logical standpoint, is fallacious. And regardless, defining them out of the religion doesn't solve the problem (and in reality you're wrong, because they're part of the religion regardless of your theoretical scriptural definition, no matter how different your stance is). Likewise, thanks for being civil. But please try to understand that defining them out of the religion doesn't actually change anything.

@Livid: I think Air will, but it's besides the point, and I explained why.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2016, 04:56:19 PM by Akomine »

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

Witchdoctor1

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #38 on: 20 January 2016, 06:54:42 PM »
I didn't say Egypt and Iraq were a considerable distance away. Sorry for any confusion.

Sure, terrorists may claim they're Muslims, and Fox News can relish that all they want, but they're considered pagans by those who refuse to commit such heinous actions (what I'm referring to as "real Muslims"). Islam is not the root of these terrorists' ideals. Nothing in Islam says you can crash into two twin towers in NYC, behead Christians at will, or go suicide bomb terrorists. The media seems to think otherwise, and if they use the term "Islamic terrorists" one more time, I'm probably going to implode. Livid can read my obituary at my funeral along with the remains of my severed body.

What drives these terrorists to do such things is the exact same thing that drives terrorist groups "representing" other religions. There are retarded rednecks out there who think al-Qaeda represents Islam. Does that mean the KKK or the Westboro Baptist Church represent Christianity? Retards' responses: "Nooooooo that's DIFFEREEEEENT."

"Islamic" terrorists' motives are not rooted in Islam, nor has Islam ever supported such actions. These are corrupt individuals driven by the exact same thing that drives other criminals to do the same (power-hungriness, money lust, bloodlust, etc.) <---Islam does not advocate any of these. Let the media say what they want. They're not considered actual Muslims by those who adhere to the faith.

Need anything more?

Actually, yes. When the KKK and WBC perform heinous acts in the name if christianity, they are, in fact, representing a part of christianity. It, just like islam, is made up of many factions with differing beliefs, whether they are orthodoxic or orthopraxic to "scripture", religious "law", or what not. Do they represent ALL christians? No, but they do help to piece together the puzzle that christianity is, as a whole. Same with religious radicals of ALL religions. They do represent some splinter or faction of the religious whole. I do agree that the majority of those who control the various islamic factions that sponsor terrorism do not, in fact, have their motivations rooted in the religion as a whole. In fact, terrorism is a growth industry with much money to be made (more on that topic later), it is a secondary socio-political entity in addition to legitimate nation-states, and it preys upon the undereducated, overzealous, underemployed, disillusioned or angry. Basically you have a bunch of very eloquent and charismatic persons convincing a bunch of cretins to do their bidding, all in the name of a "higher cause" (see ANY links to pretty much the whole of the 20th century?). So yes, when the KKK burn a cross in someone's yard, they ARE representing christianity. When skinheads in Germany kill a Turkish immigrant by beating him to death in the name of the christian national socialist movement going on over there? Yep, that is christianity. When a misguided fool who is convinced that driving a car laden full of explosives into a souk frequented by Westerners, regardless of the machinations or motivations of his handlers, he is representing islam. Not all of christianity/islam/judaism/zoroastrianism/tengriism/buddhism/hinduism/whothefuckcaresism is evil, but evil acts are not uncommonly conducted in their names (yes even buddhism. Look at the Khmer Rouge or Myanmar.)

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #39 on: 20 January 2016, 07:20:10 PM »
@Akomine - Saying terrorists are out of the religion isn't a "theoretical" scriptural definition. If it was theoretical, I would clarify otherwise. Both the Quran and Prophet Muhammad mention that those who commit blasphemous crimes are out of the religion. "Blasphemous" means anything that results in one no longer being part of the religion - idolatry, terrorism, etc. Being a Muslim, I think I would know what would and would not result in someone no longer being a Muslim.

I'm not defining them out of the religion. Islam itself defines them as out of the religion.

Thanks again.

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #40 on: 20 January 2016, 07:31:36 PM »
All religions are in the game of thought control, and there will always be deluded factions within those religions who conduct extreme acts based on their religious thoughts. This isn't exclusive to Islam, as Witch has pointed out. Buddhism is often thought of highly, but even that religion has its insane actors who burn mosques and its slightly less insane actors who at the very least sit back and applaud their efforts. To think that Islam is somehow immune to these sorts of things is just naive.

Witch, excellent reply, thank you.

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #41 on: 20 January 2016, 07:34:36 PM »
Not saying that Islam's immune to these things. Just saying that while terrorists certainly commit crimes in the name of Islam, Islam is rewarding them for it.

And yes, Witch (have we met?) definitely brought up a good point.

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #42 on: 20 January 2016, 07:37:24 PM »
@Akomine - Saying terrorists are out of the religion isn't a "theoretical" scriptural definition. If it was theoretical, I would clarify otherwise. Both the Quran and Prophet Muhammad mention that those who commit blasphemous crimes are out of the religion. "Blasphemous" means anything that results in one no longer being part of the religion - idolatry, terrorism, etc. Being a Muslim, I think I would know what would and would not result in someone no longer being a Muslim.

I'm not defining them out of the religion. Islam itself defines them as out of the religion.

Thanks again.


Oh okay good, glad we solved that. They aren't in the religion because you've decided your interpretation is the most correct one.

I'm sure they'll stop fighting for a global caliphate now.

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #43 on: 20 January 2016, 08:59:47 PM »
No Ako, they're not in the religion because I said so.

They're not in the religion because a 1400+ religious doctrine says they're not. Unless you think I made up this doctrine?

Pretty sure we can all agree on the fact that every religion has its misguided lunatics, right? Good.

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #44 on: 20 January 2016, 09:48:04 PM »
No Ako, they're not in the religion because I said so.

They're not in the religion because a 1400+ religious doctrine says they're not. Unless you think I made up this doctrine?

Again, you're claiming your interpretation is the correct one. And again, my point is that it doesn't change reality.


Quote
Pretty sure we can all agree on the fact that every religion has its misguided lunatics, right? Good.

So which one is it - Does your religion have misguided lunatics or not?

Are they or are they not in the religion?

Do you see how you're missing the point? lol

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #45 on: 20 January 2016, 11:08:48 PM »
No Ako, they're not in the religion because I said so.

They're not in the religion because a 1400+ religious doctrine says they're not. Unless you think I made up this doctrine?

Again, you're claiming your interpretation is the correct one. And again, my point is that it doesn't change reality.


Quote
Pretty sure we can all agree on the fact that every religion has its misguided lunatics, right? Good.

So which one is it - Does your religion have misguided lunatics or not?

Are they or are they not in the religion?

Do you see how you're missing the point? lol

Frankly, saying that a religious doctrine clearly states that terrorists are no longer part of the religion as result of their horrible deeds isn't an interpretation. It's a fact. What were interpretations were the verses you and I both attempted to explain.

And "misguided lunatics" does not necessarily equate to "terrorists". All terrorists are misguided lunatics that end up being out of the religion regardless, but not all "misguided lunatics" are terrorists. Y'know, people who don't do certain required and fundamental things, etc. It's not "one-size-fits-all" as you seem to imply.

Chances are, this is probably the most substantial topic in all of the Off-Topic Forums. Explanations being tossed out and about. Important real-life issues being discussed. I always love a good debate. Don't you, dear Ako?

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #46 on: 21 January 2016, 10:03:58 PM »
No Ako, they're not in the religion because I said so.

They're not in the religion because a 1400+ religious doctrine says they're not. Unless you think I made up this doctrine?

Again, you're claiming your interpretation is the correct one. And again, my point is that it doesn't change reality.


Quote
Pretty sure we can all agree on the fact that every religion has its misguided lunatics, right? Good.

So which one is it - Does your religion have misguided lunatics or not?

Are they or are they not in the religion?

Do you see how you're missing the point? lol

Frankly, saying that a religious doctrine clearly states that terrorists are no longer part of the religion as result of their horrible deeds isn't an interpretation. It's a fact. What were interpretations were the verses you and I both attempted to explain.

And "misguided lunatics" does not necessarily equate to "terrorists". All terrorists are misguided lunatics that end up being out of the religion regardless, but not all "misguided lunatics" are terrorists. Y'know, people who don't do certain required and fundamental things, etc. It's not "one-size-fits-all" as you seem to imply.

Chances are, this is probably the most substantial topic in all of the Off-Topic Forums. Explanations being tossed out and about. Important real-life issues being discussed. I always love a good debate. Don't you, dear Ako?

It's your interpretation. Other people interpret it differently. I don't know how else to word that. And I ask you again to familiarize yourself with why your claim is fallacious. It's called the No True Scotsman fallacy, and you keep committing it time and time and time again in this thread. Even if you are somehow correct, your argument is still unhelpful to the discussion.

Here's a list of resources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=No_true_Scotsman_fallacy
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

And here's a video:





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EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #47 on: 24 January 2016, 03:14:16 AM »
I am familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Again, it's not a claim if the religion's foundations don't support it to begin with.

Offline Airbongo

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #48 on: 24 January 2016, 03:48:28 AM »
I am familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Again, it's not a claim if the religion's foundations don't support it to begin with.
Holy fuck, you are stubborn, please broaden your mind a little bit and try to understand Ako's point. Your interpretation or opinion of it means shit, the point is that people, extremist Muslims, use the religion to justify its atrocities. There is no magic finger pointing at people and saying "ok, you're a muslim, you aren't". There isn't some sort of intangible force deciding who is being blasphemous and who isn't, and you saying they aren't Muslims is an OPINION, your opinion or interpretation of it isn't a fact. They call themselves Muslims, they read the Quran or whatever, they take what it says, do their own interpretation (very literal interpretation, ironically) and then they shove some explosives up their bum and they blow a little kid's school or a plane up.




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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #49 on: 24 January 2016, 03:58:24 AM »
I am familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Again, it's not a claim if the religion's foundations don't support it to begin with.
Holy fuck, you are stubborn, please broaden your mind a little bit and try to understand Ako's point. Your interpretation or opinion of it means shit, the point is that people, extremist Muslims, use the religion to justify its atrocities. There is no magic finger pointing at people and saying "ok, you're a muslim, you aren't". There isn't some sort of intangible force deciding who is being blasphemous and who isn't, and you saying they aren't Muslims is an OPINION, your opinion or interpretation of it isn't a fact. They call themselves Muslims, they read the Quran or whatever, they take what it says, do their own interpretation (very literal interpretation, ironically) and then they shove some explosives up their bum and they blow a little kid's school or a plane up.

Wouldn't this be a bit more stubborn?

I am in fact taking your opinions into consideration. Yet again, if the foundation disclaims it, then how is it opinion-based? I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

Do you need me to provide evidence or what? Not evidence from interpretations as you seem to suggest, but quotes from the Quran and/or hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). If you don't want to hear my perspective (which I have been trying to limit the bias of to begin with), then gosh, don't.

But again, thanks for the civility, gentlemen (don't you dare ruin that Airbo :) ).

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #50 on: 24 January 2016, 04:37:41 AM »
Wouldn't this be a bit more stubborn?

I am in fact taking your opinions into consideration. Yet again, if the foundation disclaims it, then how is it opinion-based? I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

Do you need me to provide evidence or what? Not evidence from interpretations as you seem to suggest, but quotes from the Quran and/or hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). If you don't want to hear my perspective (which I have been trying to limit the bias of to begin with), then gosh, don't.

But again, thanks for the civility, gentlemen (don't you dare ruin that Airbo :) ).

Maaaaan. You aren't listening. You aren't considering what we're saying.

I'm going to put some things in caps lock now, please enjoy:


It is YOUR INTERPRETATION that your god and your holy book stipulates that they aren't Muslims. It is YOUR OPINION that YOUR INTERPRETATION is correct. There are other Muslims whose opinions don't line up with your interpretation. Just like you've decided yours is correct, they've decided theirs is correct. And yet it DOESN'T MATTER. Not only is it a FALLACY, which you don't seem to understand, but it isn't even HELPFUL to the conversation, and it DOESN'T CHANGE REALITY whatsoever.

No, we don't care to see lines from the Quran, we already told you that two members of a religion with different opinions can find as much scripture as they want, and that scripture will contradict and argue both sides... and they can both say to eachother "You aren't a real Muslim" all they want, IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.

Okay so they're not a Muslim. So what? What does this argument accomplish? How does this progress anything? It doesn't, it's a waste of time and an endless circle, which is exactly what this logical fallacy does. That's why I was trying to point it out to you, but you just keep going with it.

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #51 on: 24 January 2016, 03:23:39 PM »
True, Ako. We do indeed keep cycling over, and over, and over again.

Since what I'm saying is supposedly opinion-based no matter what source I seemingly provide, then please take care to explain how the sources you provide are somehow more valid than mine.

There are other Muslims whose opinions don't line up with your interpretation.

Care to provide some examples from people who aren't "Islamic terrorists"? Thanks.
Y'know, we could come to a conclusion a lot more quicker if you didn't use the fallacy argument repeatedly. Thanks again.

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #52 on: 24 January 2016, 04:01:28 PM »
Wow.


True, Ako. We do indeed keep cycling over, and over, and over again.

Since what I'm saying is supposedly opinion-based no matter what source I seemingly provide, then please take care to explain how the sources you provide are somehow more valid than mine.

I never claimed the sources we provided are "more valid than yours", I tried to make it clear that two members of the same religion can argue all they want over scripture but that me and air don't have a stake in that game, and furthermore those sources are to help illustrate where some people derive inspiration and justification. I don't know if it'll help, but I'd like to point out that you've just committed another logical fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman


Quote
Care to provide some examples from people who aren't "Islamic terrorists"? Thanks.

The examples we provided earlier aren't from Islamic terrorists.


Quote
Y'know, we could come to a conclusion a lot more quicker if you didn't use the fallacy argument repeatedly. Thanks again.

Y'know, we could come to a conclusion a lot quicker if you didn't use a fallacious argument repeatedly, despite it being pointed out to you every time. The fallacy is what creates the endless circle. You're making a logical error which is what is leading to it. I was just trying to point it out to you.



-------

So let's move on to something else,
A couple messages ago, you seemed to claim your god is the "original source":
Quote
I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

So I'm just curious,

Do you have evidence of your god's existence?

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #53 on: 24 January 2016, 04:26:26 PM »

So let's move on to something else,
A couple messages ago, you seemed to claim your god is the "original source":
Quote
I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

So I'm just curious,

Do you have evidence of your god's existence?

I most definitely do. Tell ya what.
Not that I'm lacking evidence for God's existence, but I'm kinda busy atm, so as soon as I'm free, I'll replace this message with the evidence and whatnot. In other words, just don't respond until I change this very post accordingly.

Mmkay? Thaaaaaaaaaanks.

Offline Airbongo

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #54 on: 24 January 2016, 04:30:24 PM »

So let's move on to something else,
A couple messages ago, you seemed to claim your god is the "original source":
Quote
I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

So I'm just curious,

Do you have evidence of your god's existence?

I most definitely do. Tell ya what.
Not that I'm lacking evidence for God's existence, but I'm kinda busy atm, so as soon as I'm free, I'll replace this message with the evidence and whatnot. In other words, just don't respond until I change this very post accordingly.

Mmkay? Thaaaaaaaaaanks.
Lol this should be good.




Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #55 on: 30 January 2016, 11:24:12 PM »

So let's move on to something else,
A couple messages ago, you seemed to claim your god is the "original source":
Quote
I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

So I'm just curious,

Do you have evidence of your god's existence?

I most definitely do. Tell ya what.
Not that I'm lacking evidence for God's existence, but I'm kinda busy atm, so as soon as I'm free, I'll replace this message with the evidence and whatnot. In other words, just don't respond until I change this very post accordingly.

Mmkay? Thaaaaaaaaaanks.
Lol this should be good.


Ako is gay and has superaids - Air

EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #56 on: 31 January 2016, 03:11:28 AM »

So let's move on to something else,
A couple messages ago, you seemed to claim your god is the "original source":
Quote
I can see that if the source were to be some highly-regarded contemporary scholar, but if the very original source (God and the Quran) disprove such things, how is it an interpretation?

So I'm just curious,

Do you have evidence of your god's existence?

I most definitely do. Tell ya what.
Not that I'm lacking evidence for God's existence, but I'm kinda busy atm, so as soon as I'm free, I'll replace this message with the evidence and whatnot. In other words, just don't respond until I change this very post accordingly.

Mmkay? Thaaaaaaaaaanks.
Lol this should be good.



Don't get your hopes up. I'll cut to the chase when I have time...

...as soon as I finish other priorities that you don't need to know about.

Well, I have a life too. Be patient please. Thaaaaaaaanks.
















You haven't won. >:)

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #57 on: 2 February 2016, 05:47:55 PM »
From the Fine Bros thread:
Plz focus your time into replying to Istanbul thread, thx.

... I'll respond whenever I have the time to write an absurdly long post at once, thank you very much. ...


Why do you have to write an absurdly long post?

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EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #58 on: 6 February 2016, 09:29:27 PM »
From the Fine Bros thread:
Plz focus your time into replying to Istanbul thread, thx.

... I'll respond whenever I have the time to write an absurdly long post at once, thank you very much. ...


Why do you have to write an absurdly long post?

Reasons.

acknowledge dis if u cri everytiem

Offline Airbongo

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #59 on: 7 February 2016, 09:30:19 PM »
It's been two weeks m8, where's the proof?




EnderEssence

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #60 on: 8 February 2016, 08:49:29 PM »
I HAVE THINGS TO DO. I HAVE A LIFE.

I'll get to it when I have a good amount of time on my hands.

Offline Akomine

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Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« Reply #61 on: 8 February 2016, 11:43:25 PM »
I HAVE THINGS TO DO. I HAVE A LIFE.

I'll get to it when I have a good amount of time on my hands.

You better be careful with those llamas, mate.

Ako is gay and has superaids - Air