Why is Octo Staff?

[Airbongo]

Ask literally any staff member. They will agree that we had a discussion in the staff chat. I will not be supplying screenshots unless you admit who you got the admin logs from how about that  Me and @Akomine had a long discussion about the appeal so if you really want confirmation that it was discussed why don't you ask the owner 

Seems like the difference between those two things is that I have evidence to back up my claims, and you do not. I think that those screenshots are vital to this discussion, and would be very appreciative if you or anyone else who has access to them would post them here.

We had a pretty long discussion about it on January 28 in the staff discord. Ask the person providing you with your lil admin logs to check it I guess.

[Cbddallas]

Lol, right?  Guess he speaks for the players and for the staff.  Pretty funny.

[TheLegend12369]

I will not involve myself in this argument because I don't want to upset anyone, but I will say that I've always been of the opinion that staff, while being players, should still be actively trying to help people, not just enjoying the benefits of being staff. I've also expressed many times in the past about my distaste for using the excuse "they've been staff for a while" as a reason to keep someone staff. It makes our staff look inactive and inattentive. In addition, saying "The people who make the decisions" like Octo, so he'll stay staff, and actively dismissing someone's opinion, is not a good way to address this situation. Even if players don't decide who is staff, anyone has the right to complain, and players should feel more than welcome to criticize any staff member they want to. Again, I'm not specifically trying to cause an argument any further, I'm just restating what I've said many times in multiple threads.

[SIR_ROBOT_22]

you aren't wrong gerrit with your statement of having to make this toxic but the way you did it was poorly worded. it gets attention this is for sure but in the end all this post will do is just be seen and then ignored or wrongly criticized. people will see this as an angry toxic post that is just made to throw hate at octo thus you are unlikely to get anywhere with this.

[lishman77]

I think there are alot of actually valid concerns and criticisms here, however the way in which it has been presented pretty much invites an argument rather than discussion.

We are all of different walks of life and have dealt with our own stuff over the years and still are and will in the future. I would encourage a genuine discussion rather than straight up insulting and presenting everything in a super confrontational manner like it aint gonna bring us to a good resolution. Also jumping on the defensive to criticisms isn't overly helpful and will only continue the toxicity but how else do you respond to what feels like a personal attack i guess.

Nothing is black & white, there are multiple sides to every story and the sooner you guys understand that the better, I don't believe anyone here is genuinely a terrible person fyi but that's not to say you all haven't made mistakes or been a dickhead at some point or another, we all do it.

Obviously stuff has been building up over a while so i reckon lets cool off, stop talking shit and riling each other up in respective peer groups and come at these issues as a community?


or carry on arguing and disregard this, the choice is yours xo


(Not to sound like a hippy preaching peace & love)


edit: Also just because we have a rule to free speech doesnt mean we all have to use it to be purposefully controversial all the time and make others feel like shit
This is directed at the whole community and not towards one side more than the other here.

[OctoGamer]

my last reply to this post is gonna be that I believe Gerrit is incredibly misinformed on how VC staff operates, and hes talking out of his ass for a "majority" of players whom should speak up for themselves if they share Gerrit opinions

lastly. again, I will not take any post seriously that is "intentionally toxic" to me thats telling me you have issues with me personally and its not really an issuebwith me being staff.. despit you e saying otherwise. you came off as incredibly misinformed. and you are showing us how much of a knowledge you think you have "over" us staff i wanna say considering you are attempting to essentially black mail a minecraft server with their own staff log?i think your trying to work a personal angle here, again you've said otherwise, but I have my doubts as do other vc players. yeah im sure some share your opinion but if they do they can speak up.

honestly out of every post you made, most of which didn't make sense and contradicted each other, all I really got out of it i is I've been rude to some people. but who hasn't? I  know you certainly have Gerrit. and I know I can be rude its not like its something I'm oblivious. oh and you might wanna stop bringing up that you have access to our staff logs because that's not getting you anywhere. and certainly isn't gonna help you in any way. Don't bother replying Gerrit, I won't read it, FYI to save you some time as I know how much blood sweat and tears you've already shit into this thread.

[luisc99]

But they also voted not to bring him back as an administrator because he wasn't doing his job. Why else would he not get that position again?

This is not correct. He was not brought back as SM because he was not doing his job at A. He was brought back as SM because he'd been gone for 6 months, and giving anyone unrestricted access to anything after 6 months of absence is dangerous. In the discussions surrounding the vote the point wasn't "he's not doing his job", it was "can we still trust him after 6 months". That's why he did not get his position as admin.

Yep, I know that they need to be redefined, but Octo thought that the entire region needs to be deleted and remade, the logs for that incident are below. For context, Naomi asks Octo if he can redefine a region, Octo does not know how to do this, and tells her that he will delete and remake the region, hence him asking to to screenshot the member list. This very clearly shows that Octo doesn't even know basic staff commands, probably because he does so little that he either forgot them, or didn't know them in the first place.

With that last sentence, are you seriously trying to suggest Octo has never known how to protect something? He has protected hundreds of regions over the years, he definitely knows the commands. In that once specific instance, it was a poly region, which are not something we deal with very often, and are a huge nightmare whenever it comes to expanding them. The region itself does not need to be redefined, but we do have to sit there and go through every single point in the poly re-selecting it, and then re-defining that as the region's bounds. As I said, Octo was gone for 6 months, this is very likely his first time doing a poly region since returning. From my point of view, it's more than reasonable for him to forget how to do it, especially considering how I'd be willing to guess a non-zero chunk of staff have probably never dealt with a poly region. They're definitely not a "basic" staff command, they take a significant amount of time/work/effort, they're complicated, they're annoying, and quite frankly they should be avoided wherever possible.

Anyway, yes the mute and ban were uncalled for, but so were your actions after the fact. You conspired with Shen to lock this thread without consulting any other staff because you didn't want the person you wrongfully banned to get a fair word in, probably because you knew your actions were stupid and rash. http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=5286.0 It doesn't matter what you or the rest of the staff though about that ban and that mute, your logic on them flawed and you let your emotions get the best of you twice. Not really model behavior for a staff member, especially one that has been around for so long.

Others have already said this earlier on in this thread, but I'd like to clarify there was a lot of discussion within staff surrounding this issue. It was discussed heavily on the night itself, where there was no opposition to the ban despite multiple opportunities where that was explicitly asked. It was also discussed heavily in the days and weeks that followed. The discussion to lock that thread was taken by Shen, as the person who often deals with ban appeals. Octo was not involved in the locking of that thread. Again, there was discussion within staff which generally agreed with the decision at the time. Considering it's unreasonable to expect all of us to be available for a discussion 24/7, often actions are taken without unanimous consent. That's how the system works, it's how it has to work, else it'd take days for anything to get done. Over time as views were shared and opinions clarified, the outcome was changed, and that was reflected in the re-opening of the appeal. I'm not going to get any more involved in this specific example, as far as I'm concerned that has been dealt with, and the case is closed.

About your little backend systems rant, I have never been staff and don't really know all that much about how that works, I don't know how I would be expected to. However, it doesn't take a staff member to see that your logic here is severely flawed. You said that you couldn't be expected to remember the commands to make redefine a village, which is fair, except for that you didn't know it was possible. If you didn't remember and were aware that the commands to do that existed, why didn't you just check the VC staff utilities to figure out how to do it. Your lying is both annoying and rude to everyone here, for someone who cares a lot about the server, you sure do seem not to mind lying to the people who play on it.

With regards to the "backend rant", I absolutely agree with not being expected to remember every single thing. Throughout my entire degree I was told that more times than I can count. If you assume you can remember everything, at some point you will make a mistake (be it a typo, a mis-remembering, whatever), and that mistake could cause serious problems. It's perfectly reasonable to check something before you do it, that's why documentation is there, and that's why people took the time to write it. With regards to the VC staff utilities comment, the documentation for that is "type /village help in-game", with little-to-no info on how else to use it. I personally still use the old method of protecting villages whenever I need to, because the documentation is there, and I can always refer to it to make sure I'm doing things properly.

I'm not trying to take sides here, everyone can say whatever they like, that's no problem. I'm just trying to provide perspective and/or context where possible. In my view this should have been dealt with in a more calm and constructive manner, but that's behind us now.

To be clear, I was not directly provided those logs by a staff member. They were floating around so to speak.

I will not reveal any additional information about where I received those logs.

The logs however, I will take very seriously, and your reluctance to give any information regarding them is something I find very worrying. I strongly recommend someone comes forward regarding the source of these. If you, the staff involved, or anyone who knows anything about it wants to get in touch with me, you can do so confidentially by DMing me on Discord. I won't disclose who you are, I want to know how they were released, and to what extent. Don't make me go further on this

[gerrit70 (OP)]

Ask literally any staff member. They will agree that we had a discussion in the staff chat. I will not be supplying screenshots unless you admit who you got the admin logs from how about that  Me and @Akomine had a long discussion about the appeal so if you really want confirmation that it was discussed why don't you ask the owner 

Seems like the difference between those two things is that I have evidence to back up my claims, and you do not. I think that those screenshots are vital to this discussion, and would be very appreciative if you or anyone else who has access to them would post them here.

We had a pretty long discussion about it on January 28 in the staff discord. Ask the person providing you with your lil admin logs to check it I guess.

 I would love to see the evidence that we didn't talk about it.

Did you guys discuss it on the 28th when the appeal was locked or on the 31st when shen's screenshots are from? I'd like a clear answer on that if possible as well as timestamped screenshots to show that a discussion actually took place. Sorry for being so anal about it, but I'm kind of working in the dark here.

I cant ask the person who gave me the those logs to check the staff discord because they are a non-staff player who doesn't have access to that space, as I've said before.

Correction: The appeal lock was not discussed with other staff, but they typically are not. @Shensley I'm sorry about accusing you of conspiring with Octo to do that, but from my point of view at the time and the information I had; I think that it was a reasonable guess. I think that if there is a known connection between staff, other staff should probably be the one to lock and unlock appeals in the future to avoid this type of thing from happening again.

Lol, right?  Guess he speaks for the players and for the staff.  Pretty funny.

I never claimed to do either of those things, however I do know that there are a large group of players who are not satisfied with Octo's performance or actions. The reason why so many of them are afraid to voice those concerns however, is because you guys leap on every opportunity to tear someone apart whenever they criticize your friend, who very much deserves criticism.

Dallas, I know octo is your friend, but that doesn't mean that he is immune from scrutiny.

you aren't wrong gerrit with your statement of having to make this toxic but the way you did it was poorly worded. it gets attention this is for sure but in the end all this post will do is just be seen and then ignored or wrongly criticized. people will see this as an angry toxic post that is just made to throw hate at octo thus you are unlikely to get anywhere with this.

It is unfortunate that I had to make this post this aggressive and this toxic to get anywhere. Sadly, that is what had to be done. Does it suck? Yes. Is it annoying and tiring or everyone involved? Also yes. But I have tried to constructive and gentle in the past criticizing Octo's behavior and the only response I got was that Shen would "give him a slap on the wrist". I wish it didnt come to this point, but this is apparently the only way to get anything legitimately discussed. If anyone wants proof of that, go check shazam's appeal.

I think there are alot of actually valid concerns and criticisms here, however the way in which it has been presented pretty much invites an argument rather than discussion.

We are all of different walks of life and have dealt with our own stuff over the years and still are and will in the future. I would encourage a genuine discussion rather than straight up insulting and presenting everything in a super confrontational manner like it aint gonna bring us to a good resolution. Also jumping on the defensive to criticisms isn't overly helpful and will only continue the toxicity but how else do you respond to what feels like a personal attack i guess.

Nothing is black & white, there are multiple sides to every story and the sooner you guys understand that the better, I don't believe anyone here is genuinely a terrible person fyi but that's not to say you all haven't made mistakes or been a dickhead at some point or another, we all do it.

Obviously stuff has been building up over a while so i reckon lets cool off, stop talking shit and riling each other up in respective peer groups and come at these issues as a community?


or carry on arguing and disregard this, the choice is yours xo


(Not to sound like a hippy preaching peace & love)


edit: Also just because we have a rule to free speech doesnt mean we all have to use it to be purposefully controversial all the time and make others feel like shit
This is directed at the whole community and not towards one side more than the other here.

I agree, sorry to all of you guys for coming out of the gate so hard, but as I said above it was apparently the only way to do it. This has gotten quite a big bigger than I expected and I think we should all cool down a little and follow Lish's advice.

[gerrit70 (OP)]

my last reply to this post is gonna be that I believe Gerrit is incredibly misinformed on how VC staff operates, and hes talking out of his ass for a "majority" of players whom should speak up for themselves if they share Gerrit opinions

lastly. again, I will not take any post seriously that is "intentionally toxic" to me thats telling me you have issues with me personally and its not really an issuebwith me being staff.. despit you e saying otherwise. you came off as incredibly misinformed. and you are showing us how much of a knowledge you think you have "over" us staff i wanna say considering you are attempting to essentially black mail a minecraft server with their own staff log?i think your trying to work a personal angle here, again you've said otherwise, but I have my doubts as do other vc players. yeah im sure some share your opinion but if they do they can speak up.

Octo the reason why all of those players are afraid to say anything about your behavior is because of what is currently happening to me, I dished out a lot of shit at you and I can take it back, and I'm getting a lot of it in both public and private at the moment. Most people just don't want to deal with you and your friends leaping on them when they dare speak up about your behavior, that is why this has never been brought up before. That aggressiveness is on full display in this thread and in the anonymous board if anyone wanted to look.

I don't think I'm "Incredibly misinformed" on how staff operates as you said. I'm not staff and never have been so I'm missing a lot of pieces, but my argument still holds water. I'm also not trying to hold anything over you guys. I have a couple of logs, I don't want to say how I got them. I'm not threatening you or being like "Ooooo I'm gonna release more." That's not the way I act and that is never how I will act. You trying to frame it like that is foolish and not helping this discussion in the slightest. To be clear I am not blackmailing anyone, and my only objective is to provide relevant evidence to this discussion.

My original post was intentionally toxic, yes. I have said the reasons for that many times before and I think they are solid ones. I don't have issues with you personally because I don't know you personally. I have issues with your behavior as staff and the way that you represent this server through those actions and that demeanor. In my opinion, it isn't a good look and you acting in that manner is an active detriment to the server. Again, the reason why many people do not want to speak up is in full display in this thread.

honestly out of every post you made, most of which didn't make sense and contradicted each other, all I really got out of it i is I've been rude to some people. but who hasn't? I  know you certainly have Gerrit. and I know I can be rude its not like its something I'm oblivious. oh and you might wanna stop bringing up that you have access to our staff logs because that's not getting you anywhere. and certainly isn't gonna help you in any way. Don't bother replying Gerrit, I won't read it, FYI to save you some time as I know how much blood sweat and tears you've already shit into this thread.

If you don't think that any of my posts made sense then they might be worth a re-read. I actually know that they all made sense and made good points because you aren't countering them. You know that I have valid criticisms and you don't want to face them. If you don't think they are valid then you should attempt to prove them wrong. I know that you have been rude to people, we are all very much aware of that. That is not my argument though. I don't keep bringing up that I have access to your logs, because I don't, and if I did I wouldn't be saying that I did. I think that evidence did help my case, because it very clearly showed that you know your farms cause lag, and yet don't give a shit about it. You know that farming actively ruins other peoples experiences on the server, but you oppose any sort of regulation that would "ruin your experience" of sitting afk and lagging everyone else out. But yeah, if my posts didn't make sense or contradicted each other, wouldn't it be easy to disprove them? I think doing that would make your case better than just insulting me and saying I'm blackmailing the server, which again, I am not.

[lishman77]

Ask literally any staff member. They will agree that we had a discussion in the staff chat. I will not be supplying screenshots unless you admit who you got the admin logs from how about that  Me and @Akomine had a long discussion about the appeal so if you really want confirmation that it was discussed why don't you ask the owner 

Seems like the difference between those two things is that I have evidence to back up my claims, and you do not. I think that those screenshots are vital to this discussion, and would be very appreciative if you or anyone else who has access to them would post them here.

We had a pretty long discussion about it on January 28 in the staff discord. Ask the person providing you with your lil admin logs to check it I guess.

 I would love to see the evidence that we didn't talk about it.

Did you guys discuss it on the 28th when the appeal was locked or on the 31st when shen's screenshots are from? I'd like a clear answer on that if possible as well as timestamped screenshots to show that a discussion actually took place. Sorry for being so anal about it, but I'm kind of working in the dark here.

I cant ask the person who gave me the those logs to check the staff discord because they are a non-staff player who doesn't have access to that space, as I've said before.

Lol, right?  Guess he speaks for the players and for the staff.  Pretty funny.

I never claimed to do either of those things, however I do know that there are a large group of players who are not satisfied with Octo's performance or actions. The reason why so many of them are afraid to voice those concerns however, is because you guys leap on every opportunity to tear someone apart whenever they criticize your friend, who very much deserves criticism.

Dallas, I know octo is your friend, but that doesn't mean that he is immune from scrutiny.

you aren't wrong gerrit with your statement of having to make this toxic but the way you did it was poorly worded. it gets attention this is for sure but in the end all this post will do is just be seen and then ignored or wrongly criticized. people will see this as an angry toxic post that is just made to throw hate at octo thus you are unlikely to get anywhere with this.

It is unfortunate that I had to make this post this aggressive and this toxic to get anywhere. Sadly, that is what had to be done. Does it suck? Yes. Is it annoying and tiring or everyone involved? Also yes. But I have tried to constructive and gentle in the past criticizing Octo's behavior and the only response I got was that Shen would "give him a slap on the wrist". I wish it didnt come to this point, but this is apparently the only way to get anything legitimately discussed. If anyone wants proof of that, go check shazam's appeal.

I think there are alot of actually valid concerns and criticisms here, however the way in which it has been presented pretty much invites an argument rather than discussion.

We are all of different walks of life and have dealt with our own stuff over the years and still are and will in the future. I would encourage a genuine discussion rather than straight up insulting and presenting everything in a super confrontational manner like it aint gonna bring us to a good resolution. Also jumping on the defensive to criticisms isn't overly helpful and will only continue the toxicity but how else do you respond to what feels like a personal attack i guess.

Nothing is black & white, there are multiple sides to every story and the sooner you guys understand that the better, I don't believe anyone here is genuinely a terrible person fyi but that's not to say you all haven't made mistakes or been a dickhead at some point or another, we all do it.

Obviously stuff has been building up over a while so i reckon lets cool off, stop talking shit and riling each other up in respective peer groups and come at these issues as a community?


or carry on arguing and disregard this, the choice is yours xo


(Not to sound like a hippy preaching peace & love)


edit: Also just because we have a rule to free speech doesnt mean we all have to use it to be purposefully controversial all the time and make others feel like shit
This is directed at the whole community and not towards one side more than the other here.

I agree, sorry to all of you guys for coming out of the gate so hard, but as I said above it was apparently the only way to do it. This has gotten quite a big bigger than I expected and I think we should all cool down a little and follow Lish's advice.

will say I appreciate the shift in tone here, I may not agree with everything you're saying here but then again I don't feel well versed or directly involved enough on individual sides of the whole thing to judge without a proper discussion, that's more for all those involved to hash out. I just think everyone needs to simmer and get the pitchforks away, remember you did create the post and the replies are a testament to the fact you basically seemed to set it up to attack Octo, or at least how it comes across.

I would encourage you to try to understand staff decisions don't happen lightly and there are votes and discussion that go into that which are obviously kept internal and while we are all human you actually can trust the admin's and staff teams judgement on stuff rather than taking stuff at face value and forming an immediate opinion, however i wouldn't discourage bringing up questions and criticisms the right way at all, its still important, but if you come at everyone the way you did its just inviting more toxicity and I wouldn't say it's a necessary or needed tactic by any means, still thing that's a bad call mate. I would've recommend talking with the CM or senators because they can help mediate some of this stuff and bring it to staff in a more controlled manner or even just talking without being nasty in DMs if possible.

1 note gotta say I don't think it can be a question of activity because many of us have longer spells of inactivity, some are removed, i am one to talk after all, and i haven't dedicated near as much of my time and effort to the actual running of the server as octo in recent years, and still I haven't faced the scrutiny of that argument and the same could be said for a few of us.


On the issue of the Logs you provided I have to reiterate what other staff members are saying because I also think its pretty serious, it won't be taken lightly and I would also urge yourself or whoever provided them to DM Luis and sort that situation out.
I understand you probably don't see it the same way right now from the way you've spoke on it but it isn't just a few logs, its a breach of an internal staff area which raises red flags especially when you say they aren't staff etc, hope you can understand that and how it takes the spotlight and can cause anything actually valid you wanted to bring to be overlooked.

[gerrit70 (OP)]

Ask literally any staff member. They will agree that we had a discussion in the staff chat. I will not be supplying screenshots unless you admit who you got the admin logs from how about that  Me and @Akomine had a long discussion about the appeal so if you really want confirmation that it was discussed why don't you ask the owner 

Seems like the difference between those two things is that I have evidence to back up my claims, and you do not. I think that those screenshots are vital to this discussion, and would be very appreciative if you or anyone else who has access to them would post them here.

We had a pretty long discussion about it on January 28 in the staff discord. Ask the person providing you with your lil admin logs to check it I guess.

 I would love to see the evidence that we didn't talk about it.

Did you guys discuss it on the 28th when the appeal was locked or on the 31st when shen's screenshots are from? I'd like a clear answer on that if possible as well as timestamped screenshots to show that a discussion actually took place. Sorry for being so anal about it, but I'm kind of working in the dark here.

I cant ask the person who gave me the those logs to check the staff discord because they are a non-staff player who doesn't have access to that space, as I've said before.

Lol, right?  Guess he speaks for the players and for the staff.  Pretty funny.

I never claimed to do either of those things, however I do know that there are a large group of players who are not satisfied with Octo's performance or actions. The reason why so many of them are afraid to voice those concerns however, is because you guys leap on every opportunity to tear someone apart whenever they criticize your friend, who very much deserves criticism.

Dallas, I know octo is your friend, but that doesn't mean that he is immune from scrutiny.

you aren't wrong gerrit with your statement of having to make this toxic but the way you did it was poorly worded. it gets attention this is for sure but in the end all this post will do is just be seen and then ignored or wrongly criticized. people will see this as an angry toxic post that is just made to throw hate at octo thus you are unlikely to get anywhere with this.

It is unfortunate that I had to make this post this aggressive and this toxic to get anywhere. Sadly, that is what had to be done. Does it suck? Yes. Is it annoying and tiring or everyone involved? Also yes. But I have tried to constructive and gentle in the past criticizing Octo's behavior and the only response I got was that Shen would "give him a slap on the wrist". I wish it didnt come to this point, but this is apparently the only way to get anything legitimately discussed. If anyone wants proof of that, go check shazam's appeal.

I think there are alot of actually valid concerns and criticisms here, however the way in which it has been presented pretty much invites an argument rather than discussion.

We are all of different walks of life and have dealt with our own stuff over the years and still are and will in the future. I would encourage a genuine discussion rather than straight up insulting and presenting everything in a super confrontational manner like it aint gonna bring us to a good resolution. Also jumping on the defensive to criticisms isn't overly helpful and will only continue the toxicity but how else do you respond to what feels like a personal attack i guess.

Nothing is black & white, there are multiple sides to every story and the sooner you guys understand that the better, I don't believe anyone here is genuinely a terrible person fyi but that's not to say you all haven't made mistakes or been a dickhead at some point or another, we all do it.

Obviously stuff has been building up over a while so i reckon lets cool off, stop talking shit and riling each other up in respective peer groups and come at these issues as a community?


or carry on arguing and disregard this, the choice is yours xo


(Not to sound like a hippy preaching peace & love)


edit: Also just because we have a rule to free speech doesnt mean we all have to use it to be purposefully controversial all the time and make others feel like shit
This is directed at the whole community and not towards one side more than the other here.

I agree, sorry to all of you guys for coming out of the gate so hard, but as I said above it was apparently the only way to do it. This has gotten quite a big bigger than I expected and I think we should all cool down a little and follow Lish's advice.

will say I appreciate the shift in tone here, I may not agree with everything you're saying here but then again I don't feel well versed or directly involved enough on individual sides of the whole thing to judge without a proper discussion, that's more for all those involved to hash out. I just think everyone needs to simmer and get the pitchforks away, remember you did create the post and the replies are a testament to the fact you basically seemed to set it up to attack Octo, or at least how it comes across.

I would encourage you to try to understand staff decisions don't happen lightly and there are votes and discussion that go into that which are obviously kept internal and while we are all human you actually can trust the admin's and staff teams judgement on stuff rather than taking stuff at face value and forming an immediate opinion, however i wouldn't discourage bringing up questions and criticisms the right way at all, its still important, but if you come at everyone the way you did its just inviting more toxicity and I wouldn't say it's a necessary or needed tactic by any means, still thing that's a bad call mate. I would've recommend talking with the CM or senators because they can help mediate some of this stuff and bring it to staff in a more controlled manner or even just talking without being nasty in DMs if possible.

1 note gotta say I don't think it can be a question of activity because many of us have longer spells of inactivity, some are removed, i am one to talk after all, and i haven't dedicated near as much of my time and effort to the actual running of the server as octo in recent years, and still I haven't faced the scrutiny of that argument and the same could be said for a few of us.


On the issue of the Logs you provided I have to reiterate what other staff members are saying because I also think its pretty serious, it won't be taken lightly and I would also urge yourself or whoever provided them to DM Luis and sort that situation out.
I understand you probably don't see it the same way right now from the way you've spoke on it but it isn't just a few logs, its a breach of an internal staff area which raises red flags especially when you say they aren't staff etc, hope you can understand that and how it takes the spotlight and can cause anything actually valid you wanted to bring to be overlooked.

Yeah I did construct the post that way, and the replies are definitely are result of that. That is what I was expecting and it was entirely deserved for writing a post that aggressive. I still believe that it was necessary in order to facilitate a public discussion, despite how nasty is has been. I trust the do trust the staff as an entity almost entirely, that one situation is probably the only time where I didn't really trust the process. From a player perspective it did not look good at all. You have to see it from the way that we were seeing it. A player gets banned on very shaky ground after receiving no official warnings, then another player gets muted for asking why that happened. Afterwards, and appeal is opened up, then locked very quickly by another staff member who is a known friend of the staff member who originally administered the mute and ban. That doesn't look good at all to players and I think that many people were as shocked as I was when it happened. From our perspective it is reasonable to make those connections.

As far as everything else afterwards, it was a toxic post yes, but it was necessary. Nobody would have cared about the concerns that i brought up otherwise. I have tried it in the past in the manner you suggested and nothing happened. This was unfortunately the only way to do it.

Also activity is part of it, but the main part is Octo's other behavior, which has been generally unacceptable.

I understand that the logs are a serious issue, but it is relevant evidence which was necessary to give a full view of my argument.

[Shensley]

I understand where you're coming from when it comes to locking a friends post to save them or along that line but to be clear I have never and will never lock a post prematurely out of personal interest or that of a friends. From my understanding staff were in agreement and no one came out to object to the ban until after it had been locked. Still not sure why you needed so much proof surrounding an appeal that didn't concern you, but as you can see it was heavily talked about. I do like your change of tone and I appreciate the apology, I think if you had structured the beginning post better and not come of as toxic and demanding this might have gone better overall. I don't really think the logs were relevant or even helped your case, if anything it did more harm then helped.

[gerrit70 (OP)]

I understand where you're coming from when it comes to locking a friends post to save them or along that line but to be clear I have never and will never lock a post prematurely out of personal interest or that of a friends. From my understanding staff were in agreement and no one came out to object to the ban until after it had been locked. Still not sure why you needed so much proof surrounding an appeal that didn't concern you, but as you can see it was heavily talked about. I do like your change of tone and I appreciate the apology, I think if you had structured the beginning post better and not come of as toxic and demanding this might have gone better overall. I don't really think the logs were relevant or even helped your case, if anything it did more harm then helped.

I needed so much proof because it looked incredibly shady and because that entire process was a gross violation of server rules and the general spirit of the server. From a player perspective it look terrible, and more proof certainly helped clarify that. I do think that it is ironic that you are recommending that I had less of an aggressive tone with this post seeing as you are the one that inspired me to write it with your complete dismissal of my concerns. Had you actually cared about what a player was voicing it would have never come to this.

Saying "I will personally slap octo on the wrist for you. Your mute is over and was never put into the logs, this appeal is over.

Thread Locked."

Looks like shit, and showed a complete disregard for anything that I had said. You are the one that directly made me make this post so brutal and aggressive, because you very plainly showed that you wouldn't care any other way. In addition, this method has worked surprisingly well, so maybe you should be more attentive to player concerns in the future or other people may follow in this success. I still think the logs were necessary because it shows Octo's complete disregard for the players of this server. I will be writing a more detailed case in the coming days, which will be easier to follow on why octo should be removed from staff or should reform his behavior.

[Shensley]

I hope you understand he's not being removed for this. But feel free to write to your hearts desire!

[gerrit70 (OP)]

I hope you understand he's not being removed for this. But feel free to write to your hearts desire!

Hopefully he is either removed, or realizes he needs to shape up before he eventually is; because based on this trajectory that certainly isn't impossible.

[Shensley]

Certainly not impossible but strongly unlikely.

[Akomine]

With a bit of quiet on this thread now, I'm going to address the spirit of what is behind Gerrit's post, rather than the specific content. The following is not a weighing of the merits or faults of Octo, but rather me trying to express a feeling within the VC community that the Staff have the responsibility to hear and consider.

I am in a unique position in that I receive a lot of the private questions, complaints, and concerns from players about the Staff directly. To put it simply, the disapproval Gerrit is expressing over Octo's conduct as a VC staff member is not rare. There are complaints about his conduct from all over the playerbase. These complaints span many months, perhaps a couple years.

There is more than a strong distaste in many people's mouths over their relations with Octo and his place as a Staff member. Octo himself in the past has been self-aware that his own hyper-negativity was being taken out on the server and its players to the point that he was certainly harming many people's experiences on the server. In fact, several players have outright left. So it's no secret or surprise to me that I have received numerous complaints about Octo and his capacity to be a negative force on the server. In the eyes of many players, Octo's conduct as a Staff member can be anywhere from difficult to adversarial to downright hostile.

I think this is the spirit of the post. I worry that the spirit of the post isn't being adequately addressed or considered by the Staff, which is the whole reason this post exists in the first place; despite numerous complaints, widespread unease with Octo, and people trying to bring this up publicly in a calmer tone, it feels as though Staff are failing to address the grievances of the players. I know this is how many people feel because they've been contacting me privately, frequently. In their eyes, this is harming how players see the Staff, trust the Staff, whether they feel comfortable going to Staff with their problems, and is deteriorating the general player-to-Staff relations as a whole.

This leads to another point to consider; people are afraid to come forward with their grievances. They are afraid because they think the Staff will gang up on them, belittle them, and then hold a grudge against them and they will have a significantly harder time getting help when they require Staff assistance.

So, a thread like this may come across as distasteful (at least the opening post), but it is probably the natural evolution of a collective set of grievances that have been building up over time, and have gone largely unresolved. To me it is unsurprising, but to a Staff member who perhaps didn't realize how many complaints I/we receive or don't frequently interact with the playerbase to have knowledge of this common sentiment, this might be news. I think the Staff should carefully consider how they address this common grievance. Rather than belittle it, undermine it, or in some way try to ignore it, we should do our best to address it. I know this thread started out provocatively and unprofessionally, but consider that it was intended to get our attention after repeated calmer attempts have failed.

We need to address the spirit of what is behind this post, because let me tell you the complaints I am receiving privately right now are showing me that all eyes are on the Staff, and it isn't looking good for player-Staff relations. Our response to this is being considered widely. We are taking a beating, and many people are too afraid to say it publicly. So, I am saying it for them.

Please consider this.

[gerrit70 (OP)]

Introduction

Alright, I will preface this post by saying that I do not mean any ill will towards Octo, I do think he's a pretty chill guy. People have continued to press me on that statement, so even though I have elaborated several times before I will do it definitively now. Octo is a cool dude, I think that his base personality is pretty dope. However, at most times, his online persona seems to be different from that personality, and his actions and behavior as staff certainly are. The main issue that I have is that the image he puts out to other people on the server and in the community built around it is not a good one. This does not mean that I dislike Octo's legitimate personality, it means that I do not like his actions, behavior, and general presence on the server.

Another clarification/explanation that I think should be brought up is the the toxicity of the original post and the subsequent thread. It was not necessarily the correct or nicest way to go about something like this, but it was the only way to make any sort of actual change. I have tried to bring the issue up before in a less brash manner, but it was swiftly ignored. By doing this, I garnered a lot of attention and which actually necessitated discussion; had I done it any other way, I doubt that there would be change- and change is sorely needed.

For the rest of this post, I will outline the 'Case' for why Octo should be demoted or removed from staff entirely. There will be several different parts addressing his behavior as a staff member, and why it is not deserving of the role. If I have not previously replied to your post in this thread, I apologize, but you will find most answers to your questions or counter points here.

Point One: Octo's General Attitude

This is a very hard thing to quantify or to lay out in a manner that people who have not experienced it will understand, but given that it is one of the main reasons why I feel Octo should be removed, I will try either way. Essentially, Octo is a fundamentally difficult person to work with. He, at times, is very adversarial, aggressive, and does not make an effort to understand what is going on before leaping into accusations or action. This is hard to explian, but for an example of this demeanor, check out the logs below.

OctoGamer joined the server
[Green ~TheodoreGreen » wb octo
[A] ~Orgasmatron » whos moving spawn
[A] ~Orgasmatron » thanks
[D] ~papa » wb octogamer
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » wb octo
[D] ~papa » aka orgasmatron
[A] ~Orgasmatron » thx thx
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » im setting up stuff for the new spawn thats been discussed for weeks?
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » not moving it rn
~poobs » octo we have a new addition to fard farms
[Green ~TheodoreGreen » its still in qualia just in a different part
[A] ~Orgasmatron » can i get a link to the vote on a new spawn
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » havent voted on it yet
[A] ~Orgasmatron » oh
IEATMYTOES » i cant break stuff
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » there is a link somewhere
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » i dont have it though
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » look for it
[D] ~papa » go in ur house
[A] ~Orgasmatron » why are we doing a new spawn
[A] ~Orgasmatron » without a vote first
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » what part of "not moving it rn" was difficult for you
[A] ~Orgasmatron » i don't see why work needs to start before a vote
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » ako wanted us to set up the infrastructure first
[A] ~Orgasmatron » so the votes gonna pass?
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » idk
~poobs » do you want to lock your house?
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » probably lol
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » most people hate spawn
IEATMYTOES » yes
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » also this has been discussed for weeks, and you're only raising issue now?
[A] ~Orgasmatron » because works being done without a vote I was just made aware
[D] ~papa » ./region addmember
[Green ~TheodoreGreen » you like how it looks so far octo?
[A] ~Orgasmatron » yea it looks pretty nice but
[A] ~Orgasmatron » would have liked a vote to move spawn before work starts
~poobs » you should be added as a memeber now
[A] ~Orgasmatron » why would you start something before a vote takes plaec
[A] ~Orgasmatron » kinda odd
[A] ~Orgasmatron » i get infastructure
[A][SFR] ~Yvette » so that people know what they're voting on?
IEATMYTOES » awesome thanks!
[A] ~Orgasmatron » that looked like a complete spawn to me
[A] ~Orgasmatron » more than infastructure

Orgasmatron is Octo for reference. What is going on in this excerpt is that Yvette and Theodore Greene are working on a potential new spawn to be voted on sometime soon in parliament. Octo has just learned of this, and hops on, presumably to glean more information or to stop the new spawn from being worked on. As you can see, Octo is pretty aggressive, and doesn't even read what Yvette is trying to explain. He continues to argue until he eventually clams down a bit and moves on to other things. Next, he goes and deletes a mechanism which would help players buy and sell gold for literally no reason. Someone had worked hard to implement it, and just because he felt like it, it was removed. The logs for that incident are below.

[A] ~Orgasmatron » who made this
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » not me
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » why?
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » I think something like that is a good idea
[A] ~Orgasmatron » why
[A] ~Orgasmatron » that is not needed
[A] ~Orgasmatron » for the 3 people who have shulkers of gold blocks?
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » I think its good adding another way of selling huge amounts of stuff
[A] ~Orgasmatron » theres 3 people on the server who would use that
[A] ~Orgasmatron » and one is banned now
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » who else?
[A] ~Orgasmatron » you
[A] ~Orgasmatron » frog
[A] ~Orgasmatron » scott
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » yv I think
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » dont worry about it brutal
[KB][VIP] ~Brutalfive » theres a new way to sell gold?
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » was
[KB][VIP] ~Brutalfive » oh ok
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » for like 2 seconds
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » then octo got rid of it
[KB][VIP] ~Brutalfive » ohhh i was curioys
[KB][VIP] ~Brutalfive » oh ok lol
[M][Fox] ~Cyphur » it was a buy/sell for shulkers of gold
[KB][VIP] ~Brutalfive » oh cool

This is all only from one day, mostly due to the difficulty of finding relevant logs as evidence. But, as you can see above, Octo removes a mechanism that would help players buy and sell gold easier. Why did he do this? Who knows. Apparently because it would only help the "3 people who have shulkers of gold blocks". That is not anywhere near a good reason to just remove things that people had worked to implement on a whim.

If you thought it was over, buckle up because it sure isn't. Keep in mind that this is all the same day, I cant even imagine how many more of these incidents have occurred on days that I cant find.

Burp._.04/14/2020
server crash??

Yvette04/14/2020
did me doing !players do server crash

Daypath04/14/2020
how did u even know it broke

Baylue04/14/2020
There

Daypath04/14/2020
Ooh
that's howw
I have big retard

CyphurTheFox04/14/2020
!players
oof

Frog04/14/2020
rip

Burp._.04/14/2020
@Luis Help

Legend04/14/2020
Luis be sleepin

CyphurTheFox04/14/2020
srry Luis

Frog04/14/2020
oof

Octo04/14/2020
i'll restart it

Daypath04/14/2020
Yvette can just fix it with bread
It'll be fine

Those are all discord messages, which is why they all look weird. But the information that we can get from this series of messages is that even though octo is online, he doesn't take action to restart or to fix the server once it crashed until after Luis had been pinged by Shen. As an administrator, why would he have just restarted the server as soon as it appeared safe to do so. It looks like he waited until people said that Luis was asleep to take action, this shows Octo's unwillingness to be the first one to help, and his preference to allow others to do the work for him.

That is not the disposition that I would want to see in a staff member as a player, and it is also not the disposition that I would want to see as a staff member. Octo was the only administrator online, why didn't he act until after he realized Luis was asleep?

In conclusion, with the evidence presented, we can really get a glimpse into the operations of Octo as a staff member during a typical day. He joins, publicly lambasts players and staff for doing something that he disagrees with, removes a helpful tool for absolutely no reason, and waits for other staff to fix something before finally taking action to do his job. Again, this is only one day. It is apparent from this evidence that Octo's behavior as a staff member is an active detriment to the server. Instead of helping people, he aggressively questions them; Instead of making the server more convenient to use to players, he makes it more difficult. This raises the question, why is Octo still staff if he isn't actually helping the server?



I have a lot more to write, and a lot more evidence and reasoning to lay out. In order to facilitate a better and healthier discussion, I will post my argument in parts in order to allow people to respond, make counter points, and to add to the body of evidence. At the end, I will revise all of these upcoming posts and make one final case. I appreciate any feedback or counterpoints, whether you agree with me or not. Thank you.

[MutluMali]

I think you have a point with the first part, but the second is a bit weak. Maybe Octo was away from his computer, or looking at something else, or not paying much attention, and only realised the server needed to be restarted after Luis had been pinged. I think that in itself is far from being definitive evidence that he's lazy or unhelpful, which is what that conversation was meant to point towards.

[Shensley]

I agree with Mali, just because it took octo a minute to respond doesn't mean he was unwilling to restart the server. He could have very easily just not replied in chat and made someone else do it. I pinged Luis because he was usually online and the main person who would restart after a crash. Your first point was much better, but there needs to be a lot more evidence and reasons which I assume you will address in your next posts.

[luisc99]

I wasn't planning on getting any more involved with this, but I was name dropped so I guess I got dragged in.

With regards to the server crash, I don't really see that as him not doing his job. Yes, I am typically the one to restart the server when it crashes; I have a system running which notifies me within 30 seconds if the server is down. However even with that rapid notification, I don't always restart it immediately, because of the reasons Mali said. We can be looking at something else, getting a drink, on the phone, etc, which means it can sometimes take us a little bit to restart it. One potential thing that happened is both Yvette and Octo saw the other was online, and thought the other was going to restart it. From those logs it seems Octo was in-game and Yvette was the first to say it crashed, it would be entirely reasonable in my eyes for either to assume the other was sorting it. Or, even if not, maybe one of them was already fixing it and just didn't say that's what they were doing in the chat? I know I do that more times than not. Regardless, the server came back up in 10 minutes, which I understand is inconvenient, but it's also a pretty quick response from anyone. I know for a fact that with some major crashes, it can take the server >10 minutes to acknowledge you've told it to restart, so it could definitely have ended up being longer than it was.

With regards to the new spawn, I've tried to stay out of commenting on that publicly too much, although if I remember correctly at the time work was started without a vote, as Octo said. While there's nothing I can do to stop people doing what they want, I would personally have liked to see some sort of agreement on that, be it an indicative vote or even an internal staff vote, before starting such a drastic change, but I know I'm very much in the minority with regards to the whole spawn issue so I've learned not to bother speaking up about it, because it won't make a difference regardless. As for the gold thing, as far as I know that was not discussed prior to being created, and in fairness selling anything with metadata in showcases can be iffy sometimes, especially with things as complex a shulker boxes (there's a reason they don't work in backpacks). Regardless, shulker boxes work as an extended inventory now so the need for that specific showcase is no longer. Whether that ability remains beneficial when the dynamic market comes is a question for another day. For both these points, I think a lot of the disagreement between people arose from the apparent unilateral action to do them at the time (which I was also not a fan of), whereas in the past decisions like that had generally had more agreement within staff prior to being done, rather than in small conversations which were then taken as a decision

I'd like to clarify I'm not trying to start conflict with any of that, much of what I said was a probably poorly-worded personal opinion, which I typed while still in the process of waking up

[CyphurTheFox]

I wasn't planning on getting any more involved with this, but I was name dropped so I guess I got dragged in.

With regards to the server crash, I don't really see that as him not doing his job. Yes, I am typically the one to restart the server when it crashes; I have a system running which notifies me within 30 seconds if the server is down. However even with that rapid notification, I don't always restart it immediately, because of the reasons Mali said. We can be looking at something else, getting a drink, on the phone, etc, which means it can sometimes take us a little bit to restart it. One potential thing that happened is both Yvette and Octo saw the other was online, and thought the other was going to restart it. From those logs it seems Octo was in-game and Yvette was the first to say it crashed, it would be entirely reasonable in my eyes for either to assume the other was sorting it. Or, even if not, maybe one of them was already fixing it and just didn't say that's what they were doing in the chat? I know I do that more times than not. Regardless, the server came back up in 10 minutes, which I understand is inconvenient, but it's also a pretty quick response from anyone. I know for a fact that with some major crashes, it can take the server >10 minutes to acknowledge you've told it to restart, so it could definitely have ended up being longer than it was.

With regards to the new spawn, I've tried to stay out of commenting on that publicly too much, although if I remember correctly at the time work was started without a vote, as Octo said. While there's nothing I can do to stop people doing what they want, I would personally have liked to see some sort of agreement on that, be it an indicative vote or even an internal staff vote, before starting such a drastic change, but I know I'm very much in the minority with regards to the whole spawn issue so I've learned not to bother speaking up about it, because it won't make a difference regardless. As for the gold thing, as far as I know that was not discussed prior to being created, and in fairness selling anything with metadata in showcases can be iffy sometimes, especially with things as complex a shulker boxes (there's a reason they don't work in backpacks). Regardless, shulker boxes work as an extended inventory now so the need for that specific showcase is no longer. Whether that ability remains beneficial when the dynamic market comes is a question for another day. For both these points, I think a lot of the disagreement between people arose from the apparent unilateral action to do them at the time (which I was also not a fan of), whereas in the past decisions like that had generally had more agreement within staff prior to being done, rather than in small conversations which were then taken as a decision

I'd like to clarify I'm not trying to start conflict with any of that, much of what I said was a probably poorly-worded personal opinion, which I typed while still in the process of waking up

As one of the people who has been and is still working on the ongoing revamp to the new player experience, I think I am qualified to weigh in on why we built the spawn revamp when we did. The group that was working on it was fully under the impression that the new spawn may not get accepted by everyone else. Our hope was that by building something truly amazing that addresses numerous problems with the current spawn, we can show it to people and say "look how much better spawn could be" as opposed to merely suggesting "we change spawn" which has been a trio of words said many times before we started considerations for the project, to no avail. By showing a better spawn, as opposed to suggesting that a better spawn be built, we hoped our actions would speak volumes to the people on how much more amazing we could make the new player experience.

Because we knew there would be some pushback, we selected a region of qualia that up until that point, had gone unutilized, and I believe that had we not used it as the location for the potential new spawn, would still be unutilized today. The hope was that by using otherwise unused ground, we could avoid concerns about changing the existing spawn, as for our implemented change to actually see use, the spawn location would have to be moved from its current area to the new one. We did our best to be responsible about changing spawn, as the first impressions the server makes on a player are the most important.

So while yes, the decision to start the new spawn construction was made without a staff vote, we started it with the knowledge that things may not pass, though we would do our best to ensure that it woud; and we started it with considerations for those who did not believe in the project in the same way we did, and might be worried about changing spawn.

[gerrit70 (OP)]

I agree with Mali, just because it took octo a minute to respond doesn't mean he was unwilling to restart the server. He could have very easily just not replied in chat and made someone else do it. I pinged Luis because he was usually online and the main person who would restart after a crash. Your first point was much better, but there needs to be a lot more evidence and reasons which I assume you will address in your next posts.

I think you have a point with the first part, but the second is a bit weak. Maybe Octo was away from his computer, or looking at something else, or not paying much attention, and only realised the server needed to be restarted after Luis had been pinged. I think that in itself is far from being definitive evidence that he's lazy or unhelpful, which is what that conversation was meant to point towards.

I wasn't planning on getting any more involved with this, but I was name dropped so I guess I got dragged in.

With regards to the server crash, I don't really see that as him not doing his job. Yes, I am typically the one to restart the server when it crashes; I have a system running which notifies me within 30 seconds if the server is down. However even with that rapid notification, I don't always restart it immediately, because of the reasons Mali said. We can be looking at something else, getting a drink, on the phone, etc, which means it can sometimes take us a little bit to restart it. One potential thing that happened is both Yvette and Octo saw the other was online, and thought the other was going to restart it. From those logs it seems Octo was in-game and Yvette was the first to say it crashed, it would be entirely reasonable in my eyes for either to assume the other was sorting it. Or, even if not, maybe one of them was already fixing it and just didn't say that's what they were doing in the chat? I know I do that more times than not. Regardless, the server came back up in 10 minutes, which I understand is inconvenient, but it's also a pretty quick response from anyone. I know for a fact that with some major crashes, it can take the server >10 minutes to acknowledge you've told it to restart, so it could definitely have ended up being longer than it was.

Very fair points, I will try to find more definitive evidence.

[gerrit70 (OP)]

As a quick addition to my previous post, I did some double checking and discovered something pretty relevant.

So the day after that Octo came on and complained about people changing things near spawn in order to show people what they would be voting for, Octo comes on and changes the actual spawn.

Octo was seemingly very mad that there hadn't been a staff vote to build a potential spawn and yet he felt that he could change the actual spawn without any sort of approval at all.

What kind of moderating is that? The hypocrisy is so blatant. Octo is taking out his emotions on people without reason, that should not be staff behavior.

Here are the links to the log block pictures. Octo added a bunch of obnoxious arrows to the spawn tunnel literally a day after he chewed everyone else out.

https://imgur.com/a/vrR6qgU
 

[MutluMali]

I'm confused, are the arrows still there or was he just messing around with something/checking if the arrows would work? If the former was the case I'd say that it isn't hypocritical at all, but then again I'm a bit muddy on what happened here, perhaps due to the hour.

[Airbongo]

As a quick addition to my previous post, I did some double checking and discovered something pretty relevant.

So the day after that Octo came on and complained about people changing things near spawn in order to show people what they would be voting for, Octo comes on and changes the actual spawn.

Octo was seemingly very mad that there hadn't been a staff vote to build a potential spawn and yet he felt that he could change the actual spawn without any sort of approval at all.

What kind of moderating is that? The hypocrisy is so blatant. Octo is taking out his emotions on people without reason, that should not be staff behavior.

Here are the links to the log block pictures. Octo added a bunch of obnoxious arrows to the spawn tunnel literally a day after he chewed everyone else out.

https://imgur.com/a/vrR6qgU

He made some minor modifications to the spawn tunnel as an admin. Why would he need approval?

This point is weak. It's nonsense.

[Naomi]

I could be reading this wrong but I think the point was to highlight that in Gerritt's opinion it's a bit wrong to yell at people for changing spawn and then go do that yourself

[Shensley]

He was simply changing the current spawn to make it better sense they wanted to replace it with an entirely new spawn. I don't see anything wrong with what octo did to the spawn.

[TheLegend12369]

As a quick addition to my previous post, I did some double checking and discovered something pretty relevant.

So the day after that Octo came on and complained about people changing things near spawn in order to show people what they would be voting for, Octo comes on and changes the actual spawn.

Octo was seemingly very mad that there hadn't been a staff vote to build a potential spawn and yet he felt that he could change the actual spawn without any sort of approval at all.

What kind of moderating is that? The hypocrisy is so blatant. Octo is taking out his emotions on people without reason, that should not be staff behavior.

Here are the links to the log block pictures. Octo added a bunch of obnoxious arrows to the spawn tunnel literally a day after he chewed everyone else out.

https://imgur.com/a/vrR6qgU

He made some minor modifications to the spawn tunnel as an admin. Why would he need approval?

This point is weak. It's nonsense.

This point is not weak, as he was doing the exact same thing we were, if not worse. If I remember correctly, Cyphur, correct me if I'm wrong, Ako gave us permission to start a construction on a new spawn, just to see what it would look like, and was even online giving us advice as we were building it. If "admin approval" is what is so important like you are saying, we had permission from not only an admin, but the owner of the server to start construction.

What Octo did here was clearly hypocritical. If he has a problem with unilateral decisions that staff are doing, he shouldn't be doing them himself, especially when the actions he is complaining about was not unilateral and had been being discussed on both the forums and discord for weeks prior.