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Author Topic: Crimes at Lilac Lake  (Read 5905 times)

Offline TinyTinaJoon (OP)

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Crimes at Lilac Lake
« on: 25 January 2022, 11:00:55 PM »
Accused player(s): CyphurTheFox & Naomi
Accused of:building in village without asking permission, turning on a village tnt without permission, destroying build in village after being removed, copy and pasting the build somewhere else (without permission)
Player(s) affected:TinyTinaJoon
Time occurred: 11/22/2021 @ 2:51 AM UTC
Location: Lilac Lake
Co-ordinates: (not required, but helpful)
Screenshots: (Useful for grief reports. If you don’t know how to take or post screenshots, look below)
Brief summary of what happened:
I had a new village called Lilac Lake. I added people and gave them houses or perms to build their own houses. The accused members listed above decided to make a large catacomb system underneath Lilac which was connected to other members houses and was not an approved build by the owners of Lilac, and was deliberately kept a secret from the village owners. (This was the first official VillageCraft rule broken. Ref section B, rule 5) After discovering that the listed accused above had their own discord server called Naomi's Cult where they exchanged some unpleasant words about me, I un-added them all and told them to leave as I did not trust them to build in the village.
Once Naomi found out that some friends of hers were removed from the village without an explanation, both she and Cyphur turned on TNT without permission from the owners of Lilac (which is a clear violation and abuse by staff) and destroyed the houses they had built. (Violation of VillageCraft rule section B ref rule 6) We do have evidence and witnesses from this event if needed. They removed the catacombs with world edit, removing any evidence left behind for the owners to find, (Excluding the catacomb entrances, which still remain in the village) and Naomi even wrote letters to the members of Lilac who knew about the catacombs to let them know that they had moved it to a different location.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #1 on: 26 January 2022, 09:05:08 AM »
Wasn't this already talked about months ago? You never had a rule in the village that builds had to be approved at the time, and there isn't anything wrong with world editing if it was paid for, which to my knowledge it was (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, someone). The only thing I think you could get them on is the TNT, which was already discussed by staff when the incident first happened, I'm not sure why you've decided to bring it up again.
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #2 on: 26 January 2022, 09:16:31 AM »
Didnt yall say in the last dispute thing that village rules dont matter? with the waff and crh thing? isnt it just like normal to not build secret stuff under someones village and to also not abuse staff power?
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #3 on: 26 January 2022, 09:20:20 AM »
There are no rules against building in a village you are a member of unless there are rules stating in the village that it isn't allowed, which there weren't. It isn't grief unless it destroyed another person's build in this case, which the catacombs didn't. Again, the only thing that was done that was against the rules, as far as I can tell without looking at the logs, was the TNT, which was only done by Cyphur and has already been discussed by staff. Naomi was never even removed from lilac, at least at first, because Tina removed "Naomi" not "Namoi" which is her actual username, so she remained a member even after Tina removed everyone else.
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2022, 10:59:49 AM »
Nice to know that you guys solely go on the rules and not on whats right and wrong. I remember with the report on crh yall said village rules arent official rules and arent mandatory to follow so why make em? like pick a side dude.

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Offline Cbddallas

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #5 on: 26 January 2022, 11:09:25 AM »
I would like to state that the staff are still investigating this, no decisions have been made, and we take all player reports and grievances seriously.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2022, 11:10:14 AM »
We specifically said that the only village rules that are enforceable by staff are ones relating to building, and of course we are going to go solely on the rules, that's how it is supposed to go. I'm sorry if you guys are upset, but sadly that doesn't change the rules.
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #7 on: 26 January 2022, 11:18:37 AM »
rules r good but u cant solely go on rules, like yes we should follow them, but if broken you should take the circumstance into account too. I know for a fact that if this happened to you you wouldnt be happy abt it and dont bs me with saying 'its not that big of a deal'. there might not have been a sign stating this rule, but its only right to take tina's feelings into account instead of solely the rules lol, this is such bs smh. ppl get away with a lot of shit here
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Offline Akomine

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #8 on: 26 January 2022, 11:23:02 AM »
Quote from: KoalaBurrito on 26 January 2022, 10:59:49 AM
Nice to know that you guys solely go on the rules and not on whats right and wrong. I remember with the report on crh yall said village rules arent official rules and arent mandatory to follow so why make em? like pick a side dude.

<3
Love, KB

Village Rules are not the Staff's responsibility to enforce, those are the responsibility of the owners of the village to enforce. Staff will only act in cases where server rules are in play, or in specific instances where only a Staff member can help, such as unlocking a chest.

Village rules aren't server rules, but it doesn't make them any more or less official or mandatory, it's just that enforcement it the owners' responsibility, not the staff's.


As for what's right or wrong, that's not always agreed upon, but it may inform how rule breaches are interpreted. With regards to the rules, this set of complaints are being investigated and there is no conclusion just yet.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #9 on: 26 January 2022, 11:24:52 AM »
It isn't my job to take feelings into account when the report is about breaking rules. I am going to enforce the rules as far as I can, and Cyphur definitely did break the rules. I am sure that I would be upset if this happened to me, and I am sorry that you all are upset, but the rules are what we enforce, not people that are upset, that's how its always been on VC. We are definitely still discussing though.
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #10 on: 26 January 2022, 11:38:39 AM »
Rules besides the TNT were broken tho, the secret catacombs, fef section B rule 5 clearly states that you cant build without an owner's consent. Tina already stated that in her initial report. Also the WE that was used did affect the building that were already there, houses she built or paid to have built.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #11 on: 26 January 2022, 11:40:33 AM »
That is not how we have enforced the rule in the past, that rule has always assumed consent unless stated otherwise in village rules, at least to my understanding. I was not aware that the w/e damaged other buildings, do you have screenshots to show this? I would love to see, because that might change my opinion about the world edit a bit.
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #12 on: 26 January 2022, 11:48:48 AM »
Oop- i misspoke, the WE didnt affect the builds, but building the catacomb did. they broke stuff in the houses tina built or paid to have built to make entrances to the catacombs.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #13 on: 26 January 2022, 11:55:06 AM »
Which houses? Was it ever told to them that they could not alter their own houses?
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #14 on: 26 January 2022, 12:06:06 PM »
That you'd have to ask Tina.
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #15 on: 26 January 2022, 12:09:32 PM »
'No it was all the houses

Not their own

And bee told me they made an enterance to her house in secret so they weren’t even informing people'

- Tina
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #16 on: 26 January 2022, 12:15:12 PM »
FroggyBee definitely knew about it, the entrance was not a secret. That is a straight-up lie. We didn't make entrances to all the houses, only those of people that knew. If all the entrances are still there, feel free to go back and look at them.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2022, 12:22:09 PM by TheLegend12369 »
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Offline KoalaBurrito

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #17 on: 26 January 2022, 12:34:30 PM »
I suggest you continue this with Tina, the last message I sent was just what she had just said on disc, so I don't know all the details.
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Offline Kittypopping

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #18 on: 26 January 2022, 03:29:43 PM »
“Anyone can also build in Villages they are a member of, so long as it is okay with the Village owners.“
From my understanding as someone who is reading the rules that this would mean asking perm to build a massive section under someone’s village that almost maps out the entirety of the underground area, some type of consideration would be taken in to account with the owners. No matter how you world it or if it had said it had to be noted as a village rule, it’s pretty clearly says “so long as it is okay with the village owners”. It clearly was not okay with the village owners so i find it funny that you’ve said that in the past that’s how we have in forced that one rule. If that’s the case update the rules so that players don’t think staff are dictating and changes rules to better suit their circumstances.
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Offline TinyTinaJoon (OP)

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #19 on: 26 January 2022, 04:35:03 PM »
as a reply to akos message, these were not village rules that were broken they were server rules
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Offline TinyTinaJoon (OP)

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #20 on: 26 January 2022, 04:38:07 PM »
as a reply to legends first comment, yes it was brought up after it happened and no consequences have been served to Naomi and Cyphur which caused me to make a public post, it was not posted here before and world editing WITHOUT an owners permission is not allowed so no the only crime was not cyphur turning on tnt which appears to me to have been to Naomis knowledge that it was turned on considering me and waff and bee watched her and vanilla and cyphur running around tnting my village after being removed and asked to please leave me and my village alone
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Offline TinyTinaJoon (OP)

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #21 on: 26 January 2022, 04:45:11 PM »
as a reply to legends second comment, it is in the SERVER RULES that members of a village cannot build in a village they are apart of when the owner does not consent to it and naomi and cyphur went out of their way to keep it a secret, We have informed you twice before this that it is a SERVER rule if youre not going to read the actual complaint and just try to defuse the blame so you and your friends dont get in trouble please stop messaging on this manner as your obviously biased. Youre trying to shift the blame onto only cyphur to protect naomi and yourself and say that the tnting was the only crime when it simply wasn't, and especially considering naomi and cyphur are staff and did these things is an abuse of their power. And youre right I see now that I spelled Naomis name in the command wrong, however I expressed to her i wanted her to please leave my village and that she was no longer welcome here which includes her editing my village. It was incredibly immature and inappropriate behaviour from a staff member. Considering you were also involved in the situation and should also face punishment legend its probably best you step out of this conversation as you're obviously biased. Lets be honest here this isnt a debate on whether a crime was commited its a debate on how should the involved parties be punished which includes you.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #22 on: 26 January 2022, 05:09:17 PM »
Quote from: TinyTinaJoon on 26 January 2022, 04:45:11 PM
as a reply to legends second comment, it is in the SERVER RULES that members of a village cannot build in a village they are apart of when the owner does not consent to it and naomi and cyphur went out of their way to keep it a secret, We have informed you twice before this that it is a SERVER rule if youre not going to read the actual complaint and just try to defuse the blame so you and your friends dont get in trouble please stop messaging on this manner as your obviously biased. Youre trying to shift the blame onto only cyphur to protect naomi and yourself and say that the tnting was the only crime when it simply wasn't, and especially considering naomi and cyphur are staff and did these things is an abuse of their power. And youre right I see now that I spelled Naomis name in the command wrong, however I expressed to her i wanted her to please leave my village and that she was no longer welcome here which includes her editing my village. It was incredibly immature and inappropriate behaviour from a staff member. Considering you were also involved in the situation and should also face punishment legend its probably best you step out of this conversation as you're obviously biased. Lets be honest here this isnt a debate on whether a crime was commited its a debate on how should the involved parties be punished which includes you.

Don't boss me around and tell me how I should be interpreting the rules, because I am literally applying them the same way to you that other staff members have to players in the past. There is an argument to be made that the build shouldn't have been edited away, but the actual building of it was not against rules, or else you'd have to ban FroggyBee too, as she was involved with building it too, as well as Dallas. I am taking this seriously and there has been a lot of discussion about it, and I am only one person. Whatever everyone decides I'll stand by, but the only thing that I can see DEFINITIVELY is Cyphur using TNT. It really doesn't matter if Naomi was also present, if she didn't blow anything up she didn't grief. We are still discussing whether the editing away of the catacombs was breaking a rule. I also don't care if you threaten to report me as well, go for it if that's what you wanna do. We can just ban everyone involved for all I care. Just remember that means more than just the few people you want to get in trouble. It was supposed to be something fun and we looked forward to you finding it until you started removing us and we didn't know what was happening.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2022, 05:16:58 PM by TheLegend12369 »
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Offline TinyTinaJoon (OP)

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #23 on: 26 January 2022, 05:48:18 PM »
Quote from: TheLegend12369 on 26 January 2022, 05:09:17 PM
Quote from: TinyTinaJoon on 26 January 2022, 04:45:11 PM
as a reply to legends second comment, it is in the SERVER RULES that members of a village cannot build in a village they are apart of when the owner does not consent to it and naomi and cyphur went out of their way to keep it a secret, We have informed you twice before this that it is a SERVER rule if youre not going to read the actual complaint and just try to defuse the blame so you and your friends dont get in trouble please stop messaging on this manner as your obviously biased. Youre trying to shift the blame onto only cyphur to protect naomi and yourself and say that the tnting was the only crime when it simply wasn't, and especially considering naomi and cyphur are staff and did these things is an abuse of their power. And youre right I see now that I spelled Naomis name in the command wrong, however I expressed to her i wanted her to please leave my village and that she was no longer welcome here which includes her editing my village. It was incredibly immature and inappropriate behaviour from a staff member. Considering you were also involved in the situation and should also face punishment legend its probably best you step out of this conversation as you're obviously biased. Lets be honest here this isnt a debate on whether a crime was commited its a debate on how should the involved parties be punished which includes you.

Don't boss me around and tell me how I should be interpreting the rules, because I am literally applying them the same way to you that other staff members have to players in the past. There is an argument to be made that the build shouldn't have been edited away, but the actual building of it was not against rules, or else you'd have to ban FroggyBee too, as she was involved with building it too, as well as Dallas. I am taking this seriously and there has been a lot of discussion about it, and I am only one person. Whatever everyone decides I'll stand by, but the only thing that I can see DEFINITIVELY is Cyphur using TNT. It really doesn't matter if Naomi was also present, if she didn't blow anything up she didn't grief. We are still discussing whether the editing away of the catacombs was breaking a rule. I also don't care if you threaten to report me as well, go for it if that's what you wanna do. We can just ban everyone involved for all I care. Just remember that means more than just the few people you want to get in trouble. It was supposed to be something fun and we looked forward to you finding it until you started removing us and we didn't know what was happening.
The building of it was against the rules and no im not saying just naomi and cyphur should be held accountable for building it I agree that Dallas and Bee and you and everyone else involved should also be punished, bee can tell you when i found out that she was in on the catacombs I wasnt speaking to her for a while and I never said that it was a ban worthy offense to simply build it, but I think that in collaboration with all the other crimes naomi should no longer be staff and cyphur should be banned in general just for all the total crimes he committed here and on other situations but thats my belief on how the punishments should go and thats up for decision with ako and other staff and if you guys r gonna do a server vote or anything is up to you. What isnt okay is trying to make unfair excuses for Naomi because she did so much more than just build the catacombs which is why she should have a greater punishment than people whose only crime was building it. Also to what you said about Naomi not being a griefer because she didnt turn on the tnt she just knew about it and watched, she is a staff member with a responsibility and she should not have ignored and allowed cyphur to grief like she did, there should be serious percussions for this because she isnt fit to be staff if shes letting her petty anger at me for not wanting to have a relationship with any cult members be the reason she enables and encourages a griefer. The reason you and other people who were involved in making the catacombs werent in this report legend was because Naomi and Cyphur went much farther and their punishment needs to be on a different level than the people who did the catacombs.
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Offline FroggyBee

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #24 on: 26 January 2022, 07:14:41 PM »
Quote from: TheLegend12369 on 26 January 2022, 09:05:08 AM
Wasn't this already talked about months ago? You never had a rule in the village that builds had to be approved at the time, and there isn't anything wrong with world editing if it was paid for, which to my knowledge it was (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, someone). The only thing I think you could get them on is the TNT, which was already discussed by staff when the incident first happened, I'm not sure why you've decided to bring it up again.

Seeing as it was talked about months ago and there was nothing done about it is the reason this was brought up again. I'm not even here to talk about the catacombs because I was also a part of it, but the TNT incident was clearly staff abuse and you all know it. And I have proof and witnesses of that event if need be. What happened, happened. But I know for a fact some people were shitting their pants about this in your side server at some point because they knew what they did was wrong, and now it just seems like you're upset that we're trying to not let it get swept under the rug.
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Offline TheLegend12369

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #25 on: 26 January 2022, 07:51:22 PM »
Quote from: FroggyBee on 26 January 2022, 07:14:41 PM
Quote from: TheLegend12369 on 26 January 2022, 09:05:08 AM
Wasn't this already talked about months ago? You never had a rule in the village that builds had to be approved at the time, and there isn't anything wrong with world editing if it was paid for, which to my knowledge it was (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, someone). The only thing I think you could get them on is the TNT, which was already discussed by staff when the incident first happened, I'm not sure why you've decided to bring it up again.

Seeing as it was talked about months ago and there was nothing done about it is the reason this was brought up again. I'm not even here to talk about the catacombs because I was also a part of it, but the TNT incident was clearly staff abuse and you all know it. And I have proof and witnesses of that event if need be. What happened, happened. But I know for a fact some people were shitting their pants about this in your side server at some point because they knew what they did was wrong, and now it just seems like you're upset that we're trying to not let it get swept under the rug.

I specifically said the TNT was bad, and we are talking about what kind of punishment should be done. Stop putting words in my mouth.
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Offline KingNurtul

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #26 on: 26 January 2022, 09:49:52 PM »
If yall don't have any new evidence for this report maybe we could take the discussion elsewhere? Investigation is ongoing and this isn't the place to argue about wording of the posts of others. If the rules are an issue, that can be brought up in parliament.

Note: Please post in active Report/Grievance threads constructively in a worthwhile manner as long as the threads are still unresolved. Intervening in active unresolved reports/grievances with irrelevant posts that are not important to the thread may result in an immediate forum temporary ban or warning. Please, though, post useful information, observations, and interpretations if they add to the thread. While this board will not be as strict as the Ban Appeals board in enforcing these guidelines, please follow them to help staff and fellow players.
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Offline Cbddallas

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #27 on: 27 January 2022, 08:46:14 AM »
This is still being discussed and no decisions have been made, but I would like to ask Tina what her preference is regarding the village and the build that was removed. Would you want the build restored, the entire section rolled back to how it was before the underground was built, or the area terraformed to have a mix of naturally appearing materials instead of solid stone?  I’m not discounting the other issues, just asking from a practical standpoint what your preference is for that portion of the village itself.
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Offline Airbongo

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #28 on: 28 January 2022, 03:17:45 AM »
I just wanna clarify something: as staff we do NOT enforce village rules. Whatever or wherever a village member can build (or any other village rules) is always enforced by the owner(s) of said village. Every single village member has been directly authorized by the owner(s) of the village. Owners can easily remove people if they aren't following the rules and we only interfere when blatant grief happens. Building the catacombs broke no server rules.

Quote
VILLAGE OWNERSHIP
1. Villages are owned by whoever is listed as an owner in "/region info". The VC Staff do not have any ownership rights over your village - you own it.
2. Any owner can add another owner, just be aware that you now jointly own the village equally. Be careful who you add as an owner.
3. Owners are responsible for their village, can create village rules, manage how land is used, and manage who is a member.
4. Only VC Staff members can remove an owner, which the other owners much convince staff to do, usually by a vote among owners.

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VILLAGE RULES
1. These are up to the owner(s) to determine, must be available for all members to read, and anyone in the village must be given the opportunity to read them when they join or when the rules are changed.
2. Villages are still under VillageCraft's rules: http://www.villagecraft-server.com/forum/index.php?topic=3898.0

Not ok with the owners? That's why they have the power to remove the offending members.

Anyway, although quite minor, I see two instances of actual staff abuse:
-Turning on TNT in the region/village without the owner's consent in order to destroy their own houses. This is the most blatant offense out of the two.

-Using World Edit to remove the catacombs after they were kicked off from the village. At this point Cyphur and Naomi had no right to modify the village without Tina's consent.

Two more points:

Staff abuse: I would like to point out that any talk of banning or demoting Cyphur or Naomi over this is ridiculous. While there's two very valid instances of power abuse here and Tina was 100% justified in reporting them, they're both nonmalicious and very minor offenses. We will definitely talk to them about it though.

Compensation for Tina: Given that there's pretty obvious evidence of Villagecraft staff power abuse, I think compensation is definitely in order. This compensation would obviously be on top of what Dallas already offered. What that compensation is will be discussed with Tina.

Tina, does that sound fair?
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Offline Akomine

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #29 on: 28 January 2022, 03:17:27 PM »
Rule #5
Building

Allowed:
- Anyone can build anywhere in the Outlands, and in Villages that they own.
- Anyone can also build in Villages they are a member of, so long as it is okay with the Village owners.


Quote from: TinyTinaJoon on 26 January 2022, 04:35:03 PM
as a reply to akos message, these were not village rules that were broken they were server rules

Hi Tina, I just want to clarify that building in a village that you are a member of is within the rules of the server. There are instances where building can be against the rules, and building can even be griefing, but in this instance we have members of a village building in that village. Furthermore there were no known village rules that prevented this action. Even if it was in secret, the implications of members building something without express and specific approval of a village owner being considered against server rules are vast. We would have to punish or even ban hundreds of players, possibly thousands over the years. It's an interpretation of the rules that barely holds any water. It would be impossible to enforce. I certainly disagree with the interpretation.

I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of the underground build, but I see no reason to think that it was malicious, and I can't find any way to consider it against server rules, especially with no village rules to back it up.

As far as anyone is concerned, they were members of a village, and built in it. You added them as members, and they built. Arguing that rules imply that the underground build was against server rules is overbroad.


Removing it might be another question, and it's my understanding it has been restored to Lilac Lake at this time.



Quote from: Airbongo on 28 January 2022, 03:17:45 AM
-Using World Edit to remove the catacombs after they were kicked off from the village. At this point Cyphur and Naomi had no right to modify the village without Tina's consent.

Air, it's my understanding that Naomi was a member of the village when this occurred. I just wanted to correct that.




Lastly, we are deliberating about how to conclude this grievance, and will inform you of our decision as soon as we can.
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Offline TinyTinaJoon (OP)

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Re: Crimes at Lilac Lake
« Reply #30 on: 30 January 2022, 04:11:33 PM »
whats the compensation gonna be?
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